Is it ok to filter to b 1st?

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Human Ills

We have a lot of riders in California, and filtering is legal and your hypothetical doesn't match my practical experience/observation.

i haven't ever ridden or driven in cali to know.

but, others have described to me that when filtering in cali, you stay between the cars on multi lane roads and, so, you and the cars still pull away at the same time...so, you aren't holding the cars up at all. you aren't skipping line, you are creating another line. is that correct?

if so, that is different from what the OP asked. (he asked about the kind of "filtering" i see from time to time around here...where you go around cars and then cut back in front of them.)

if not, and you are actually pulling in front of the lead car so that the car that was 1st in line is now 2nd in line, the 2nd in line is now 3rd in line, etc. how do you surmise you are not having an effect? how did you measure how many cars would have made it through the light had you and several other bikes not skipped to the front of the line? have you timed how long it is between when the light turns green and when the first car starts accelerating (in cases where no line skipping has happened vs. in cases where line skipping has happened)?

obviously, the 2nd person in a line cannot begin to accelerate until the 1st person has pulled away. the 3rd cannot begin to accelerate until the 2nd has pulled away, etc. so, obviously, moving someone from 1st in line to 2nd in line (or 2nd in line to 3rd in line, etc.) is going to delay them to some extent.

[Tjocksteffe]

[QUOTE=LittleRedToyota;19721870]i haven't ever ridden or driven in cali to know.

Text...

In theory everyone could start accelerating at the same time? Or am I wrong?
(Well fuck'it)

[AZbiker]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

if it's only you, and you nail the throttle the instant the light changes (and the 1st car in line would not have done the same),

When I do it I end up a hundred+ feet in front of the next nearest cager.

That was even in Phoenix on my 883 XLH, a bike that wouldn't get out of it's own way.

I've been riding that way for a long time.

[Human Ills]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

i haven't ever ridden or driven in cali to know.

but, others have described to me that when filtering in cali, you stay between the cars on multi lane roads and, so, you and the cars still pull away at the same time...so, you aren't holding the cars up at all. you aren't skipping line, you are creating another line. is that correct?

if so, that is different from what the OP asked. (he asked about the kind of "filtering" i see from time to time around here...where you go around cars and then cut back in front of them.)

if not, and you are actually pulling in front of the lead car so that the car that was 1st in line is now 2nd in line, the 2nd in line is now 3rd in line, etc. how do you surmise you are not having an effect? how did you measure how many cars would have made it through the light had you and several other bikes not skipped to the front of the line? have you timed how long it is between when the light turns green and when the first car starts accelerating (in cases where no line skipping has happened vs. in cases where line skipping has happened)?

obviously, the 2nd person in a line cannot begin to accelerate until the 1st person has pulled away. the 3rd cannot begin to accelerate until the 2nd has pulled away, etc. so, obviously, moving someone from 1st in line to 2nd in line (or 2nd in line to 3rd in line, etc.) is going to delay them to some extent.

I don't want to say never, but I've never seen a rider filter to the front, only to move back over and wait in front of the first car, in the crosswalk or the intersection, for the light to turn green.

Occasionally, two people will filter to the front and one rider is somewhat at the mercy of the first rider to clear out. But typically when the light changes, the gap between the cars are excruciatingly massive and tend to shrink as the time to yellow winds down, another reason why it's safer to be at the front of the light as opposed to far in the back.

[eatpasta]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

unless you run the red light, skipping to the front of the line holds the line up relative to what would have happened had you not skipped to the front of the line.

if it's only you, and you nail the throttle the instant the light changes (and the 1st car in line would not have done the same), the hold up is very short and probably has no real effect.

all this says to me is that you've never ridden in California and have never needed to lane split.

I've been riding almost every single day in Los Angeles for the past 10 years and I can tell you, without question that 95% of the time if I leave when the light turns green, the cars haven't even cleared the crosswalk.

You have no idea how much safer it is for bikes to make their way to the front.

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

i haven't ever ridden or driven in cali to know.

and if you have never ridden in California, or lane split, why are you critiquing people that do? I certainly don't give Tuba lessons.....

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by eatpasta

all this says to me is that you've never ridden in California and have never needed to lane split.

no one ever *needs* to lane split.

I've been riding almost every single day in Los Angeles for the past 10 years and I can tell you, without question that 95% of the time if I leave when the light turns green, the cars haven't even cleared the crosswalk.

if you have cut back in front of the lead car, that proves nothing. the lead car can't begin to go until you are out of the way. so, obviously, the cars will not have cleared the crosswalk until after you are already gone.

(but, it sounds to me like you do not move back in front of the lead car. in that case, as i have said before, no problem. but, i don't think that is what the OP was talking about.)

You have no idea how much safer it is for bikes to make their way to the front.

yes i do. but i choose to ride a motorcycle. thus, i choose to put myself in additional danger relative to driving a car. thus, it is i, and not others, who should bear the downside of that choice. forcing others to be inconvenienced to accommodate my choice would be lame.

and if you have never ridden in California, or lane split, why are you critiquing people that do? I certainly don't give Tuba lessons.....

if someone asked "is it OK for me to go play my tuba next to someone's window?" you could probably answer "No" even though you don't play a tuba.

at any rate, as i mentioned above. if your definition of "lane splitting" does not involve cutting back in line after skipping past people, then what i'm saying doesn't apply. but the version of "lane splitting" or "filtering" or, really, "skipping line" that happens (from time to time, not a lot) around here does involve cutting back in line.

you can justify it however you want, but the bottom line is that going around people who are in a line and then cutting into the front of the line is skipping line. it means everyone else in the line has to wait a bit longer. that's the way lines...all lines...work.

also, as i said before, if it is just one bike and you are on the ball, it probably does not mean a car that would have made it through the light won't get through the light. but, if it does end up meaning a car that would have gotten through the light does not, then you are being a selfish a-hole.

[dbuzz]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

yes i do. but i choose to ride a motorcycle. thus, i choose to put myself in additional danger relative to driving a car. thus, it is i, and not others, who should bear the downside of that choice. forcing others to be inconvenienced to accommodate my choice would be lame.



if someone asked "is it OK for me to go play my tuba next to someone's window?" you could probably answer "No" even though you don't play a tuba.

at any rate, as i mentioned above. if your of "lane splitting" does not involved cutting back in line after skipping past people, then what i'm saying doesn't apply. but the version of "lane splitting" or "filtering" or, really "skipping line" that happens (from time to time, not a lot) around here does involve cutting back in line.

you can justify it however you want, but the bottom line is that going around people who are in a line and then cutting into the front of the line is skipping line. it means everyone else in the line has to wait a bit longer. that's the way lines...all lines...work.

also, as i said before, if it is just one bike and you are on the ball, it probably does not mean a car that would have made it through the light won't get through the light. but, if it does end up meaning a car that would have gotten through the light does not, then you are being a selfish a-hole.

Meh ... if the car drivers all suddenly decided to ride bikes they would be the ones filtering / splitting with the rest of us. The only reason they don't do it now is they can't.

I'm usually gone before they even realise I am there. You do get the occassional nob who tries to block .. I just wait my chance.

[JonU]

When I lived in Germany, lane splitting didn't bother me at all (and yes i was driving a car then). I could care less if somebody on a motorcycle was to make his/her way to the front at a light. So what if they get through and I don't, that's the benefit of riding/driving a small vehicle; it opens up spaces other people can't use. Anyways, if your route or trip is timed so tight that missing a light or two will make or break whatever it is that you are trying to do, then maybe you didn't give yourself enough time in the first place. I am definitely for lane sharing/splitting. WIll I do it? Not unless it is made legal, and even then I probably still wouldn't do it very often. But it would be nice to have the choice.

[eatpasta]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

no one ever *needs* to lane split.

Have you even ridden in a city with 17,000,000 cars? Bikes overheat in 90F+ heat very quickly when stopped - so yes, bikes NEED to lane split in Los Angeles. The entire reason that it is legal in California is so that the CHP bikes wouldn't overheat in traffic.

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

that proves nothing. the lead car can't begin to go until you are out of the way. so, obviously, the cars will not have cleared the crosswalk until after you are already gone.

again, you've never done it, you dont understand. Very rarely is the bike directly in front of the car. Because you came up between the cars, yes you are in front of the cars but still in between - therefore, never impede their forward motion. I can tell you that from the times I have stalled my XR650R and when the light turned green, the cars never had problems going around me while I was trying to kick start the dammed thing....

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

at any rate, as i mentioned above. if your definition of "lane splitting" does not involved cutting back in line after skipping past people, then what i'm saying doesn't apply. but the version of "lane splitting" or "filtering" or, really "skipping line" that happens (from time to time, not a lot) around here does involve cutting back in line.

you can justify it however you want, but the bottom line is that going around people who are in a line and then cutting into the front of the line is skipping line. it means everyone else in the line has to wait a bit longer. that's the way lines...all lines...work.

also, as i said before, if it is just one bike and you are on the ball, it probably does not mean a car that would have made it through the light won't get through the light. but, if it does end up meaning a car that would have gotten through the light does not, then you are being a selfish a-hole.

When you are lane splitting, you are essentially using a different lane. You are virtually NEVER getting in the way of the cars and vice versa. Being in the middle, does not, impede traffic flow. I don't understand how you are coming up with these answers with zero experience.

Now.... let me end this post with a personal footnote.

One morning commuting to work I came to part of the road where it was too narrow for me to lane split. So I filed in with the rest of the cars....and then....



I could have very easily have been killed by this industrial lawn mower and why it was on Santa Monica Blvd., ill never know. Had I been lane splitting, I could have avoided this whole ordeal.

I was very lucky.

Now, had these guys been allowed to lane split, a bunch of innocent people would still be alive.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...nclick_check=1

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by eatpasta

I don't understand how you are coming up with these answers with zero experience.

again, as i have explained a couple times, i am not commenting on what you described.

i am commenting based on what i see people doing from time to time around here (not what you describe...but, rather, going past the line of cars and then moving back over in front of the lead car).

and, more relevantly, in response to the actual wording of the OP:

Is it ok to filter thru when reaching an intersection to be in front and not trapped in between cars (who are checking Facebook, answering calls and returning txts)?

to me, that sounds like what i have witnessed (moving back over in front of the lead car), not what you are describing (creating another line rather than moving back to the front of the existing line), but maybe i misunderstood what the OP was envisioning.

anyway, i think i've made myself clear and i'm just repeating myself, so i'm done.

[swimmer]

Originally Posted by Human Ills

Here's the problem, some people have tiny genitalia. Anybody who calls themselves a rider better know that the safest place is in a bubble and that the best way to create a bubble is by being first off a light.


.

Sure, whack the throttle as soon as the light turns green. You, your bubble and, the prick that just ran the red light have a grand old meeting in the middle of the intersection. Being the first person into an intersection has no appeal.

[khager]

I can tell you when I do it in TX, I don't hold anyone up. That's a fact. I am usually half a mile down the road before the cagers clear the intersection. They accelerate like loaded cement trucks around here, not counting the 10 seconds it takes to notice the light has turned green. And every cager needs at least a football field in front of him before he can start accelerating. Then they all get stuck at the next red light, the one I cleared on green long ago. There aren't near as many commuter bikes here as in CA, but if there is already a bike filtering I just hang back. If they want to race me off the line, well that would be real progress, we could probably get an extra 5 or 6 cars thru the intersection before it turned red again.

In CA it's like the bikes have their own lane, when they just keep filtering up to one light after another without leaving the centerline. There are always cars at the next intersection, because the light never clears all the existing cars waiting at that light, so they don't get back in a lane, they just stay in the center for miles. How does this hold you up? If I split to a light, beat everybody off the line badly, turn right down the next street, then turn in my driveway without any cars getting within 1000 yds of me, does this hold you up?

Nevertheless it works fine in CA and most of the rest of the world, it's only here in the 49 states that we have this third-grader mentality. Waaaahhhhhh, he's cutting in line.

[khager]

Originally Posted by swimmer

Sure, whack the throttle as soon as the light turns green. You, your bubble and, the prick that just ran the red light have a grand old meeting in the middle of the intersection. Being the first person into an intersection has no appeal.

Yes, I never look both ways, before I launch myself across the intersection.

[windmill]

Originally Posted by khager

Nevertheless it works fine in CA and most of the rest of the world, it's only here in the 49 states that we have this third-grader mentality. Waaaahhhhhh, he's cutting in line.

No matter how much frosting you put on a rice cake...........it's still a rice cake .

Myself and most riders will agree that splitting and filtering should be allowed, but (drum roll please) it is in fact not allowed in 49 of 50 states. I know it's confusing to many, but there is actually a difference between personal opinion and public law. Yeah, I know it sucks, but thats the way it is boys and girls.

If the laws were changed, if the laws lasted long enough for Darwin to weed out the idiots, if non riders were educated that it was legal and beneficial to all, then in time it wouldn't be a problem for the most part.

Unfortunately as long as we have a handful of "special" riders behaving like spoiled children the rest of us will pay the price. I'm not claiming to be without guilt in breaking traffic laws, yet even I am able to recognize it's not whining, its calling an ass an ass.

[Human Ills]

Originally Posted by swimmer

Sure, whack the throttle as soon as the light turns green. You, your bubble and, the prick that just ran the red light have a grand old meeting in the middle of the intersection. Being the first person into an intersection has no appeal.

You're under the impression that one has to do more than be ready to roll on a green and accelerate at more than a casual pace in order to create that safe space.

You're completely mistaken on both counts.

Next concern?