Is it ok to filter to b 1st?

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by tattoogunman

This same topic came up in Twtex.com (Two Wheeled Texan) and I'll say here what I said there (more or less). I was in law enforcement for 16 years and as already stated, here in the U.S., it's more or less illegal in most places. Since the OP said they don't care about that, I'll go to my second point and a few people have already hit on it.

Let's face it - right, wrong, or indifferent and regardless of what you ride, there is a stigma in this country against/towards motorcyclists. When people are sitting in traffic in their “cages”, the last thing they want to see is someone flying by them on the shoulder on their bike effectively “skipping line” as someone on here has already stated. Oh I get it, don’t get me wrong – I totally get the urge to want to do it. But let us be a bit civil (if that’s the right word to use here) and think about what we are doing. All you’re doing is pissing off everyone else on the road and then people wonder why people have an attitude towards motorcyclists. I got lambasted on Twtex for saying the same thing. People complained about everything from bikes overheating to being hot in their gear as excuses to break the law and get ahead of everyone else in traffic or other situations.

As has already been said – you’re going to ride however it is you decide to ride on a given day. But all I would ask is that you think about what you’re doing and then justify why you’re any different than any other motor VEHICLE on the road that is expected to obey the traffic laws. Just because you are on two or three wheels instead of four does not give you any more right to break the law than anyone else. Do it and expect to pay the potential consequences. If you can justify it on whatever level you want to justify it, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it right. And no, during the times that I have had a motorcycle, I've never done it and don't plan to ever do it

Tough to read!

Well said!

Jim

[eatpasta]

Originally Posted by larryboy

I commute 175 miles per day on a CBR250R right now and short of a Lambo there isn't anything on the road that can beat my 60 foot times.

Back to filtering, I have actually saved my own life by filtering, I entered the share zone and the car that had been behind me slammed the last car in line, KABOOM, I would have been killed instantly.

I do whatever it takes to stay alive, I'll run a stop sign right past a cop to keep a mower from mowing me down...sorry, AJ.

dood you ride 200 miles a day on that new CBR.... how does it handle it?



and just like you, having kept an eye on my mirrors, and moved up between cars have managed to avoid being creamed by someone going WAY too godammed fast several times. At least two of those times the car rammed the car I was just behind.... dont want to think about what would have happened....

as far as the lawnmower, I was on a super narrow part of Santa Monica on the GS - there was no room!



and I totally agree - ill take a ticket any day of the week to avoid being hit. I can't tell you how many laws Ive had to break in this city to avoid getting rammed by one of millions of asshat car drivers in the this town.

[TFuse]

I commute most days through DC traffic, and I'll admit to some selective filtering, especially when there is a nice gap to go through, its hot, I'm hot, and there is no opportunity for cars to make lefts or rights from their single file. Never had any issues. Bicycles do the same thing 100% of the time, as well as fail to stop at red lights, stop signs etc. (once had a bicyclist with a six-pack of beer hanging from his handlebar bang the beer cans off my fender as he rode by me, and then gave me the finger) I think in DC at least, the LEOs have given over traffic enforcement to traffic cameras.

[SgtDuster]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Wait, did someone actually say it shouldn't be allowed? I think many said it isn't, and some said it is a bad idea where it isn't allowed, but I don't recall anyone saying it shouldn't be allowed.

Jim

This!

Pass the law "worldwide" (I'm in Canada), put adds in newspaper, TV, wherever you want to "educate" the cagers or at least to let them know that now we can filter and I'm in.

It's like turning right on red lights. It was illegal in Quebec something like 10 years ago and let me say that it was a pretty bad idea to even try to do it anyway. Not just about fines and "legal" stuff but because nobody was expecting you to do it.


It's now legal. It's a whole new story because it's expected.

[RxZ]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Wait, did someone actually say it shouldn't be allowed? I think many said it isn't, and some said it is a bad idea where it isn't allowed, but I don't recall anyone saying it shouldn't be allowed.

Jim

Meh, you know what I meant. This was basically my way of "justifying" filtering by showing studies done on the subject and thereby hopefully educating some people. Do I personally do it? In four years of riding I have maybe five times. I just do not have a need to where I live. Would I do it more if I lived in a major city and commuted by bike? Probably. But I know what could happen, both by LEOs and vigilantes and I think I am ok with what the likely outcomes are (nothing would happen).

To answer the OP's question:

Is it OK to do it? Under the right circumstances sure, you won't get hurt.

Is it legal to do it? In Texas, no.

[Tjocksteffe]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Jo momma is in the basement.

Jim

That I know, but this thread isn't there

[windmill]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Wait, did someone actually say it shouldn't be allowed? I think many said it isn't, and some said it is a bad idea where it isn't allowed, but I don't recall anyone saying it shouldn't be allowed.

Jim

It seems some folks are either confused or they're being deliberately obtuse.

[pretbek]

I call utter bullshit on everyone who gets all huffy about people who illegally filter because it is against the law.

What, do you always drive at or under the speed limit? No? Then explain to me the difference.

I think filtering mostly offends people's sense of "fairness", that filterers are "jumping the line".
That's fine, valid explanation of the strong emotions. But the against-the-law argument is instantly moot if you ever speed.

[Human Ills]

Originally Posted by windmill

It seems some folks are either confused or they're being deliberately obtuse.

It doesn't seem that way, SOME people are.

I'm not one of those people.

[thistle66]

Originally Posted by tattoogunman

This same topic came up in Twtex.com (Two Wheeled Texan) and I'll say here what I said there (more or less). I was in law enforcement for 16 years and as already stated, here in the U.S., it's more or less illegal in most places. Since the OP said they don't care about that, I'll go to my second point and a few people have already hit on it.

Let's face it - right, wrong, or indifferent and regardless of what you ride, there is a stigma in this country against/towards motorcyclists. When people are sitting in traffic in their “cages”, the last thing they want to see is someone flying by them on the shoulder on their bike effectively “skipping line” as someone on here has already stated. Oh I get it, don’t get me wrong – I totally get the urge to want to do it. But let us be a bit civil (if that’s the right word to use here) and think about what we are doing. All you’re doing is pissing off everyone else on the road and then people wonder why people have an attitude towards motorcyclists. I got lambasted on Twtex for saying the same thing. People complained about everything from bikes overheating to being hot in their gear as excuses to break the law and get ahead of everyone else in traffic or other situations.

As has already been said – you’re going to ride however it is you decide to ride on a given day. But all I would ask is that you think about what you’re doing and then justify why you’re any different than any other motor VEHICLE on the road that is expected to obey the traffic laws. Just because you are on two or three wheels instead of four does not give you any more right to break the law than anyone else. Do it and expect to pay the potential consequences. If you can justify it on whatever level you want to justify it, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it right. And no, during the times that I have had a motorcycle, I've never done it and don't plan to ever do it

Since the formatting of this post is awful to read, I'll give the cliffs:

1) Some people get pissy at filtering because it means someone is getting ahead of them.
2) There are laws in some places that make filtering technically illegal.




My comments:
1) Jealousy isn't a good thing but some folks let it become a big part of their lives.
2) Just because it's technically illegal doesn't mean it's wrong.

[thistle66]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

unless you run the red light, skipping to the front of the line holds the line up relative to what would have happened had you not skipped to the front of the line.

if it's only you, and you nail the throttle the instant the light changes (and the 1st car in line would not have done the same), the hold up is very short and probably has no real effect.

if skipping line becomes common place and you have several bikes doing it or you don't nail it the instant the light changes, the hold up starts to have an effect.

if one car does not make it through the light because of your skipping line that would have made it through the light had you not skipped line, you have negatively impacted another in a selfish act--which is lame.

You totally forgot about the cars behind where our rider would have been if he stayed back in the pack. The bike filtering and escaping quickly off the front might allow that car previously 15th in line to get through the light whereas he might not have if the bike had stayed in the 14th spot and trundled through behind the other cars. This is more likely to happen than the process of the bike holding up traffic that you suggest - unless our hero on the bike is a slug off the line of course

Scooting to the front frees up an extra space behind, see...! You forgot to factor that in.

[Ginger Beard]

Originally Posted by thistle66

Scooting to the front frees up an extra space behind, see...! You forgot to factor that in.

More than one if all the bikes at an intersection do it.

[windmill]

Originally Posted by pretbek

I call utter bullshit on everyone who gets all huffy about people who illegally filter because it is against the law.

What, do you always drive at or under the speed limit? No? Then explain to me the difference.

I think filtering mostly offends people's sense of "fairness", that filterers are "jumping the line".
That's fine, valid explanation of the strong emotions. But the against-the-law argument is instantly moot if you ever speed.

When discussing it here in theory you are entirely correct, practicing it in the real world is a different matter.

Think about it,
If I choose to go 5 or 10 mph over the limit on the freeway who will notice? in many places that is the norm and expected.
Here In Seattle I may see someone split lanes on the freeway 2 or 3 times a year and I'm on the road 8 to10 hours a day.
If I choose to split lanes through a traffic jam, it's an action that stands out from everything else, every car I pass is going to notice it with the knowledge that it's illegal and they will see it in the same light they would a rider stunting on the street. It's not normal, expected or accepted.

When permitted, the benefits of splitting and filtering far outweigh any additional risk or hurt feelings, even where illegal there are going to be times where it's going to be necessary or prudent, and the negatives have also been covered.
All I'm really trying to say is we should acknowledge that when we choose to not follow the law we are in the wrong, and do it with discretion, reserving it for when really necessary. We shouldn't be using "safety" as an excuse to do it habitually, thats no better than the "loud pipes save lives" crowd, were not fooling anybody but ourselves when we do.

Think about how we talk about car drivers making "bad choices" here, then think about how the other 99% of the people on the road are talking about us when we make "bad choices" Mostly it's about perception, not the actual outcome..

We as riders need to do a better job, and think about our future before we make those choices.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

so what grade level does the entitlement mentality of "fuck everyone else who is waiting in line...i'm entitled to go to the front of the line because i'm special" correspond to?

A Doctorate Degree in common sense?

[It'sNotTheBike]

Originally Posted by pretbek

I call utter bullshit on everyone who gets all huffy about people who illegally filter because it is against the law.

What, do you always drive at or under the speed limit? No? Then explain to me the difference.

Your "logic" above fails because you assume that since both are illegal there is no other
difference. But there is a huge difference in the hazard presented by speeding
slightly vs. filtering. Obviously you are unable to understand this so I am going to explain it
for you.


When a bike "filters" in an area where filtering is not permitted by law, the bike is
doing something which many drivers __would not expect to happen__.


Filtering is significantly different from going a few mph over the speed limit,
because the vehicle which is speeding slightly will still be doing what most
of the drivers on the road expect it to do; it will still occupy the lane in which
it is traveling, and will not present surprises to other motorists, many of whom
may themselves be speeding slightly. But speeding does not cause their vehicles
to be in a radically different position from what would be expected, and filtering
does.


Some of the drivers who are pissed off at you because you filtered might not be not pissed off
because they are jealous -- they might well be pissed off because your bike appeared
out of nowhere and they nearly hit you and it scared them. And they are not the ones
who are wrong, you are when you filter in an area where the law prohibits it. See, the law
is the set of rules which allows society to operate, and if you want to live in society you
don't get to pick which laws you like and ignore the rest; that's not how it works.


The only bullshit here is your flawed logic and your apparent insistence on filtering
because you feel entitled to do it. Filtering is a bad idea not because it is illegal, but because
WHEN IT IS ILLEGAL IT SURPRISES OTHER MOTORISTS and that creates an additional
hazard which would not have been there if all the motorists on the road
were doing what was expected of them. This problem is not limited to filtering : we
have all been surprised by someone who changes lanes without using a turn signal.
On a public road, surprise is a bad thing and predictability is a good thing.


If you really want to filter, work to get the law changed and when filtering is legal the
other drivers will expect it, and you can filter safely because it will be expected.



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