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Old 10-01-2012, 03:02 PM   #24361
drrags
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Time for a pic or two

Trying to find a way over some mountains to Pyramid Lake, NV (fail)


South of Gerlach (think Burning Man), NV
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:07 PM   #24362
BrandonR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K7MDL View Post
So much discussion on the capacitor and much confusion. I used to design power supplies for a living. The results in the video are quite predictable and not a problem,. In fact quite normal.

There are filtered and unfiltered charging systems. Most vehicles with alternators are unfiltered and use the very low internal resistance of the (good condition) battery as part of the component design for charging current and voltage output and the (good) battery provides the filtering. The alternator provides AC and rectifers (aka diodes) chop teh negative portion of the AC waveform to create a very rough DC voltage. A large enough capacitor can be of use to help filter the chopped AC waveform in the event a battery goes south. Maybe some devices in a system are sensitive to damage from an unfiltered waveform. For our bikes, that is specualtion still. For other bikes that do not require a battery to start and run (like the Carb'd TE450) all components are designed to run on poorly filtered DC power or have some minimal filtering added, or use a DC generator. The filtering is commonly a capacitor plugged into the wiring harness somewhere like under the seat. Some components on these bikes have filtering at the component where it matters. Light bulbs do not care about waveform They convert power to light and heat. Ignition systems do care as some parts of them need to be tightly voltage regulated.

Filtered supplies are common in non-battery powered devices or and communication systems where ripple voltage may cause noise and affect their function. Think of AC whine in a home stereo system or 2-way radio. For small systems/devices an external supply contains the filters (capacitors, inductors, resistors in some combo) to lower the component count inside the smaller device profile (think wall warts connected to a small phone). AC to DC conversion power systems function by rectifying the AC voltage - meaning chopping off the negative side of the waveform. Filtered and unfiltered systems my be voltage regulated and/or current limited. Systems with relatively large batteries, or that use power line noise tolerant components may use a lightly or totally unfiltered power supply.

The service manual shows the design of the TE610 voltage reglator (VR). It chops the 3 phase AC and combines all 3 phases to make rough DC. It regulates that voltage by controlling how much of the waveform is chopped. It has uppper and lower limits. For example, it cannot shut off completely and it requires a minimum load to maintain regulation. Too much load and the alternator cannot supply enough and the voltage droops. The VR makes little attempt to filter the voltage in an effort to contain the size of the unit and increase heat tolerance. Most capacitors do not like heat and they can be relatively large. I am sure cost savings count as well. The battery is close by and provides all the filtering needed -- as long as the battery is in decent condition.

Summary:
Large batteries can swamp the ripple or chopped waveforms such as seen on the oscilloscope when the battery was disconnected. When a battery goes south, it may no longer be able to filter the supply enough to satisfy all components in the system. It is possible the other devices in the system cannot tolerate the now unfiltered power. A capacitor can help filter the power in the event the battery fails to filter properly and help voltage senstive components get the relatively clean DC power they need to function correctly. There is very little downside to incorporating a large capacitor to your system, but it must be of sufficient voltage rating.

Whether the TE610 can start up on power filtered by the capacitor alone requires calculation or experimentation (as some have done already). Some systems like the FIs need to draw a fair amount of DC power to get started, This is when push starting can help (if you can) since it can create longer duration power at higher RPM (vs. kick start) to get things charged up enough to function. Too much load can exceed the ability of the capacitor to filter it cleanly. The charging system design is quite common and is like most other designs out there for many years and does the job. It depends on the battery is all. So does your car.
Thanks for filling that in, I was on a cruise and didn't have access to the interwebz last week.

To answer your question:
Yes, the TE610 will bump start with only the capacitor installed, it's not easy to bumpstart any 600 class bike but it can be done. I only tested it warm to prove the basic principle, If it was cold and had lost prime on the fuel pump etc.. it would be more difficult, but with a big enough hill or a lot of pushing you could probably do it eventually. I'd prefer a jump start anyways and that's usually fairly easy to get.

The first sawtooth waveform is with just the capacitor, no battery, the last one that's only in the video for a second or so is the completely unfiltered electrical. My speculation is that the waveform spends enough time at under 5v(or 3v... depending on what it uses) for the computer to shut down when there's no filtering, the capacitor provides enough filtering to keep the voltage higher than the minimum so the computer doesn't shut down, the electrical is still "dirty" but the system can handle it. It would be interesting to put a capacitor on just the computer (diode isolated) to see if a very small capacitor just big enough for the computer would serve the same purpose. The capacitor I used was just the biggest one I could find at radioshack, there wasn't a lot of though put into the specs on it.
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BrandonR screwed with this post 10-01-2012 at 03:15 PM
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:44 PM   #24363
Ragin Rabbi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drrags View Post
Trying to find a way over some mountains to Pyramid Lake, NV (fail)


South of Gerlach (think Burning Man), NV
You still have a "real" bike or just the boulevard bomber?
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:51 PM   #24364
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The two white-tanked bikes (TE450 and TE610) are mine (where's the tongue-sticking-out emoticon?) The poser bike is nowhere to be seen here
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You still have a "real" bike or just the boulevard bomber?
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:10 AM   #24365
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I added a capacitor to another vehicle, and the people were getting good results with bigger than 4700muF. Found a 10k at a local non-chain electronics store. Just a thought, might smooth it out even more.

There's also DigiKey. I'd recommend going with at least a 25V rating, but even 50V rated caps are still pretty cheap for motorcycle parts. Gives some extra range to deal with random spikes, voltage regulator failure, etc.
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:30 AM   #24366
BrandonR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
I added a capacitor to another vehicle, and the people were getting good results with bigger than 4700muF. Found a 10k at a local non-chain electronics store. Just a thought, might smooth it out even more.

There's also DigiKey. I'd recommend going with at least a 25V rating, but even 50V rated caps are still pretty cheap for motorcycle parts. Gives some extra range to deal with random spikes, voltage regulator failure, etc.
It's a tradeoff, there isn't a lot of space on the TE to stow the capacitor, the 4700uf cap is easy to get (everyone can find Radio Shack) and small enough to stow easily under the computer.. and seems to work fine.
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:26 PM   #24367
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Dunlop Sportmax on rear wheel???

I have a Dunlop Sportmax 110/80/18 front tire that came off a friends bike. It's a street tire that has a bit more life left and now that we're getting into the rainy season around here, I'm wondering if I could put this on my rear wheel? Will it work being narrower than the 140 the book calls for?
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:16 PM   #24368
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Just changed the oil in this 2006 610 and found these large pieces of metal on the drain plug and large screen filter (sizable and very course, like very large pieces of sand). The paper filter and small screen were clean though. The bike runs fine and has no engine noise. It has approx 5k street miles on it and never raced or abused. I pulled both side covers and everything visible there looks fine. Won't know more till I tear it all down but till then does anyone care to guess where this metal is coming from?



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Old 10-02-2012, 10:26 PM   #24369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Banning View Post
Just changed the oil in this 2006 610 and found these large pieces of metal on the drain plug and large screen filter (sizable and very course, like very large pieces of sand). The paper filter and small screen were clean though. The bike runs fine and has no engine noise. It has approx 5k street miles on it and never raced or abused. I pulled both side covers and everything visible there looks fine. Won't know more till I tear it all down but till then does anyone care to guess where this metal is coming from?



Most likely culprit is the spring washer cup things on the clutch. They suck real hard (that's a technical term)
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:26 PM   #24370
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Take a good look at your reed valve cover next to the lower end of your cam chain. Double check by looking at your cam chain tensioner, might be 10 or 11 clicks out by now. The cam chain acts as a chain saw and grinds off the reed valve and cover edge, and one of the screws for it. It can also take out some aluminum with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Banning View Post
Just changed the oil in this 2006 610 and found these large pieces of metal on the drain plug and large screen filter (sizable and very course, like very large pieces of sand). The paper filter and small screen were clean though. The bike runs fine and has no engine noise. It has approx 5k street miles on it and never raced or abused. I pulled both side covers and everything visible there looks fine. Won't know more till I tear it all down but till then does anyone care to guess where this metal is coming from?
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:33 PM   #24371
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perpetual oil leak

ok, so My bike's been leakin' oil for a while. I haven't ridden it in several weeks, and there's a decent puddle under. the thing is, it's been doing this the better part of a year, I haven't ridden it hardly at all, and yet it's still 'full' in the sightglass.


What happens if you grossly overfill a 610? Cuz that's all I can figgure I did... It seems like it's leaking from the top screw above the kick-start plug, which seems like it should be WAY above the sump level.

Tomorrow's project is to pressure wash it, and talc it up and finally find out what's happenin, but I am starting to wonder if I'm like; Jed Klampett and discovered a endless source of oil.
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Originally Posted by Just_Sean
Oh for ***k's sake Aaron. Please link us to my fascist, racist or homophobic posts.
"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either."
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Old 10-03-2012, 04:56 AM   #24372
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Air filter excess dripping out of the air box?
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:53 AM   #24373
J Banning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xymotic
Most likely culprit is the spring washer cup things on the clutch. They suck real hard (that's a technical term)
Thank you xymotic. I have the engine out and on the workbench and will take a look.
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Current rides: '04 CR500 AF supermoto, '06 KTM 250 XC-W, '02 XR100 minimoto, '09 GSX-R 600 track, '07 VFR800
Past rides: '77 Goldwing GL1000, '86 Z50R, '86 LT250R, '86 TRX250X, '90 XR600R, '92 KX250, '98 ZX-7R, '99 TM125, '99 CR500AF, '01 GS500E, '04 KTM 525 SMR, '05 KTM 625 SMC
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:56 AM   #24374
J Banning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K7MDL
Take a good look at your reed valve cover next to the lower end of your cam chain. Double check by looking at your cam chain tensioner, might be 10 or 11 clicks out by now. The cam chain acts as a chain saw and grinds off the reed valve and cover edge, and one of the screws for it. It can also take out some aluminum with it.
Thank you K7MDL. I'll take a look at the tensioner and if the chain is wearing against anything. There was no unusual engine noise though (like I've heard on other bikes with loose cam chains) and the metal in the oil is magnetic.
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Current rides: '04 CR500 AF supermoto, '06 KTM 250 XC-W, '02 XR100 minimoto, '09 GSX-R 600 track, '07 VFR800
Past rides: '77 Goldwing GL1000, '86 Z50R, '86 LT250R, '86 TRX250X, '90 XR600R, '92 KX250, '98 ZX-7R, '99 TM125, '99 CR500AF, '01 GS500E, '04 KTM 525 SMR, '05 KTM 625 SMC
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:33 AM   #24375
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Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
Air filter excess dripping out of the air box?
My 610 does this. I bought the bike new and when I took the air filter cover off you could see where the air filter oil worked its way down to the front part of the filter and was dripping on the engine. It happened again when I replaced the filter, but not as bad. A couple weekends ago I cleaned the filter and reinstalled it being careful to not over oil it. So far I haven't had the oil dripping, but will see after some more riding.
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