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Old 10-03-2012, 07:27 AM   #106
LittleRedToyota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJS View Post
It is a sense of entitlement that causes drivers to get pissed off by filtering
some people are waiting their turn in line. other people are skipping to the front of the line.

and you claim it is those who are waiting their turn who are the ones with the sense of entitlement?

you got that exactly backwards.

whether or not filtering bikes actually hold up the line (depends on how the filtering is done and how many bikes are doing it), the anger of the cagers at seeing MCers (and bicyclists) appear, at least, to be skipping by them in a line does not come from a sense of entitlement. it comes from a sense of fairness--and a perceived violation of fairness. (if you want to change attitudes/laws, it would be best to own up to that and address it.)

thinking it's OK to skip line, on the other hand, is about as clear an example of an entitlement mentality as you will find.

LittleRedToyota screwed with this post 10-03-2012 at 07:33 AM
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:30 AM   #107
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California politics SUCK so for penance they let us lane split/filter.

As for holding up traffic when you filter to the front If you filter that would suggest you're being kept from traveling the speed you would like. If someone holds up traffic after filtering to the front at a light, they should be shot! The reason for filtering is to proceed unimpeded when the light changes. I have NEVER had a problem with hitting the far crosswalk before the cagers get 1/2 way across the intersection AND I'll have 100 yards separation within seconds (without grossly exceeding the speed limit, just getting to it much quicker). As someone else said, I can get across town in less than 1/2 the time it would take in a car by splitting/filtering.

As for safety? Common sense goes a long way and when there is a lack of, there are problems.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:32 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
True, but all it takes is one pissed off self centered asshat cager actively trying to run you down to make you consider not doing it again. Yes, this has happened to me.

Jim
Jim, glad you survived the experience.

I think that's the challenge for riders in the US: hammering into the heads of cagers that "filtering" <> "cutting in line". When (and if) this change in cagers' mentality happens, the laws will follow.

Hard to do? Sure. But the rest of the world already did it.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:47 AM   #109
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Pissed off cagers:

You can identify them long before you split past them. Common sense! I stay in my lane until the natural flow puts me past them and then I proceed. Rarely will it take more than a minute with the ebb and flow (rubberbanding) of traffic.

Because it's common in California most drivers are aware and just bare it. My experience is the ratio of drivers giving more room to those trying to squeeze me out is about 10 to 1 with 90% just holding their line.

Yes, I have been stopped from splitting or filtering by disgruntled drivers. It's never escalated because I avoid them after the confrontation by either falling back or getting around and leaving them well behind. I won't go past unless I'm sure I can get some distance after doing so.

It's not perfect and there are risks but there are risks riding our chosen mode of transportation. Judicious use of the privilege and you'll be just fine from my experience.



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Old 10-03-2012, 07:55 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post

thinking it's OK to skip line, on the other hand, is about as clear an example of an entitlement mentality as you will find.
This seems like such a baseless argument but I will bite. How exactly is filtering on a motorcycle/scooter,etc equal to skipping in line? This isn't the DMV or Disney World where "skipping" results in someone losing their turn. This is more akin to situations where someone is dealing with a situation that is dynamically different and more difficult/dangerous than the norm. Due to this dynamic difference there is (or at least should) be an understanding that the rules may need to be different in order to ensure a safer/more comfortable journey than would be experienced if they were to be forced to adhere to the same rule set as those with advantageous assets. Would you get upset with or defend others that would get upset with people with a disability getting preferential treatment? I can't imagine anyone interpreting a person in a wheelchair being shuffled to the front of a line as them "skipping".
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:03 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
I don't think anyone is discounting the benifits. We would all love to do it.

I think there is no doubt that it is illegal in most places. However, were there is disagreement is in the viability of "safely" doing it. Some say it is, some say it isn't.

Like most things, people who disagree take their point of view to extremes and refuse to listen to the other/opposite point of view. Hense, this thread, and the animosities presented here.

Jim

Hey Jim,

My post was in direct response to Windmills post. He clearly stated that a pro-safety argument was without merit.


I agree that filtering is not always safe. That is where situational awareness comes into play. If I took you on my daily commute through Miami traffic you would see where not filtering could have extremely dire consequences. One off ramp comes to mind. It is on the other side of an obstructed hill with a very brief transition from interstate speeds to full stop. I have witnessed many rear end collisions in this location and due to that I will never wait at the back of that line.


Regarding not doing it because someone may get road rage ? I'm not sure that I could ever pander to those individuals and would rather take my chances with escaping their rage after the fact than to live my life in fear of them.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:10 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ginger Beard View Post
How exactly is filtering on a motorcycle/scooter,etc equal to skipping in line?
in some cases it is not. in other cases it is. here is a real world example, i have witnessed more than once (while waiting in line on my motorcycle), of when filtering really is line skipping and why some people get pissed about it.

unlike in cases where you have several lanes all going in the same direction through many lights, we have many intersections in pittsburgh that have three lanes--a left turn lane, a straight only lane, and a right turn lane.

an example is the bloomfield end of the bloomfield bridge for anyone familiar with the area. traffic can get backed up nearly all the way across that bridge (about a half mile long bridge). at the end of the bridge, the straight lane goes onto a relatively narrow street (but a major rush hour traffic route in spite of not really being able to accomodate the volume of traffic--we have a lot of streets like that here) with cars parked on both sides and another light about 1/4 mile down the road.

bikes sometimes filter through the traffic on the bridge and then pull back in front of the first car in the straight only lane to get to be first in line.

when the light turns, they go, but often cannot make it through the next light because of traffic and the timing of the lights. because the street is so narrow, they physically cannot filter. because traffic is so heavy, not everyone who had been in front of them on the bridge makes it through the light at the end of the bridge.

so, the bike is now taking up a space in line after the first light, before the 2nd light. and, as a result, one less car made it through the light at the end of the bridge.

the bike has skipped line. plain and simple. just like skipping line in any other line. it is not fair. it betrays a sense of entitlement. and, yes, it pisses people off...justifiably so.

but it is different from what many here are describing.

Quote:
Would you get upset with or defend others that would get upset with people with a disability getting preferential treatment? I can't imagine anyone interpreting a person in a wheelchair being shuffled to the front of a line as them "skipping".
people do not choose to have a disability. we choose to ride motorcycles. when i make a choice, i should be the one who bears the ramifications (good or bad) of that choice. it is not right for me to force others to be inconvenienced to accommodate my choices.

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Old 10-03-2012, 08:30 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
people do not choose to have a disability. we choose to ride motorcycles. when i make a choice, i should be the one who bears the ramifications (good or bad) of that choice. it is not right for me to force others to be inconvenienced to accommodate my choices.

We cater to other peoples choices on a daily basis. We wait for school buses full of kids that someone else chose to have. We stop at crosswalks and wait until walkers cross even though we didn't choose for them to walk, that was their choice. Some people choose an activity that they know could result in a disability( Surfing, working with machinery, the military,ect.) yet we still accommodate them even if that choice results in a disability. Why? Because allowing ego to override decency and logic is unacceptable. Not filtering because you may anger someone that clearly has a fragile ego should be equally unacceptable. I simply won't waste my time worrying about those individuals and will deal with them as they come.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:44 AM   #114
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I don't ride on the street.
No kidding.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:52 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Ginger Beard View Post
Would you get upset with or defend others that would get upset with people with a disability getting preferential treatment? I can't imagine anyone interpreting a person in a wheelchair being shuffled to the front of a line as them "skipping".
Sweet, we are disable now.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:56 AM   #116
LittleRedToyota
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No kidding.
WTF? you crossed a serious ethical line there by purporting to quote me as typing something i never typed.

wow. the fact that you would do that really says something about you.

btw, i ride on the street every single day. i don't even own a car.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:59 AM   #117
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Sweet, we are disable now.

Read through some of the threads here...There's no denying it!!
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:01 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
WTF? you crossed a serious ethical line there by purporting to quote me as typing something i never typed.

wow. the fact that you would do that really says something about you.

btw, i ride on the street every single day. i don't even own a car.
So it's only your brain that's in a cage.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:11 AM   #119
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No kidding.
+1 (and toyota don't make motorcycles)
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:19 AM   #120
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Sweet, we are disable now.

Read through some of the threads here...There's no denying it!!
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