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Old 09-23-2012, 07:32 AM   #181
sendler
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DR Pulley sliders

Here are some screen shots of what the DR Pulley sliders do differently from rollers. This is actually a very nifty invention and has been patented. Good for them.
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The only draw back seems to be the possibility of the low ratio going below the design threshold and allowing the belt to go slack on some bikes which causes a shudder on take off until the weights swing out to take up the slack. Some people have had to add a shim to stop the travel of the variator.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:02 AM   #182
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In the search for more power from a motorcycle, the first move is usually to change to a louder pipe. Modern fuel injected engines make this easy as the closed loop adaptation from the O2 sensor often has enough range to adapt to the free flowing exhaust to get the mixture right back on the map without any electronic "rejetting". A cutaway of the muffler of the PCX, and other photos I have seen where people have actually disassembled the can to remove it's guts, shows that the gasses come in the front through the catalyst, travel to the rear in a large pipe where they exit into the volume of the can, come back to the front of the can through a few large baffle openings where they enter another smaller pipe that runs all the way to the back again where they run into one more flat "wall" baffle before rushing around it to get out. An excellent, large volume design and almost as silent as any car. I like cheap homebrew mods so I decided to try some Black and Decker tuning and save my $300 from buying a nice Leo Vince. If I didn't like it I can always find a take off exhaust to buy that someone else has just laying around after replacing theirs.
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The cutaway image wasn't completely accurate in showing all the supports inside the can so I ended up with a few extra exploratory holes but eventually found a sweet spot to open up the can which eliminates the trip through the long skinny pipe and the dead wall baffle at the outlet but I get to keep my cat and my $300. That muffler is built to last! The steel is very strong and is 1-2mm thick. It could very well be a structural part of the swing arm.
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The original small pilot holes surprisingly let out very little additional flow or sound so once I found some open room I went to larger holes in two steps. I had two 10mm holes and it still didn't sound very loud while revving on the stand so I drilled one more. Now that I have ridden the bike I would probably recommend a little less as it is getting pretty loud at full throttle but does still settle down to a tollerable level while cruising being just audible above the music in my in ear monitors.
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The dynos of the CBR250R usually show big gains at the lower rpms, dying away to 0% gain through the first induction tuning suck out from 4,500 to 6,000, and gaining again to 9% up through the upper midrange with a big peak at 8,700 and then falling back to stock above that to redline. The drilled PCX feels about the same. A CVT bike will never run at low rpms so there is no performance to gain there and the final pull to top speed at 9,600 rpm feels about the same although cruising at 9,000 rpm is using less throttle than before. Not a big gain at full throttle on top.
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Fuel economy is up slightly by 2-3% as is the weighted hill climb speed, from 48 mph to 49.5 at 7,000 rpm. 0-50 mph test runs were very windy again and are quite difficult to do accurately but averaging all of the two way runs, the improvement was less than I would have thought. Down only .3 seconds from 13 to 12.7.
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Next up will be some DR Pulley sliders at 12gm and then a "1500 rpm" (whatever that is referring to) torque spring to increase the pulling rpm from the stock 6,600 up closer to 8,000.
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:23 PM   #183
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I have been asking about how changing the torque spring effects the CVT trans and was finally refered to this video showing the torque drive slots. This is a very obvious design parameter of the CVT trans that most explanations and videos totally ignore.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=FjVhtKaOH04
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:05 AM   #184
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The guys at Scooterworks.com had an NCY drivetrain upgrade kit for the PCX which allowed them to determine that the contra spring has the same dimensions as all of the standard GY6 125cc springs. They stock the "1000 rpm", 1500, and 2000 rpm springs. I tried the 1500 for $18 shipped and installed it with the stock weights which will take about 20 minutes next time. It is really stiff! I'm glad I made a rough measurement of the comparative spring rates before putting it in. You can measure it with a digital scale. Choose a socket with an extension in it that is about 70% of the free length of the spring and place it inside the spring on a scale. Tare the scale to zero and then press down with your hand until it is just skimming the top of the extension which is being used as a travel gauge. I found 6.5kg for the stock spring vs 10 kg for the new one. The aftermarket spring is a whopping 35% stiffer. Takegawa lists their spring at 11%. I wonder what it really measures. I put the NCY in anyway to see what it would do. My PCX is now much more responsive. It now immediately down shifts, or revs up, whichever way you want to look at it, when increasing the throttle. All of the rpm ranges were shifted upwards. Even mild coast down. Light cruise at 30 mph is running 5,000 rpm now and it immediately jumps to 6,400 on accel. Maybe this is the 1,500 rpm the rating is referring to. Once past 30, the pulling rpm continues to rise up to 7,400 whereas it used to be 6,600. I may get a chance to do some timed runs later today but it feels much quicker. There is still some action at 50 mph. The stock drive train has the weights locked all the way out by 50 mph with almost no kick down available. The new spring still allows some down shift from 7,000 to 7,400 at that speed. Pulling speeds of 8,000 are said to be at the power peak so I can still go with slightly lower mass in the weights but the 12gm sliders I have are probably too low now with this spring. There is a big loss of top speed though so I am going to try the next lighter spring and then play with the weights and may even spend some more money to see if there is any difference with a kevlar belt. I'm not sure if the loss comes from the rear torque pulley being still too active over 60 and pulling the weights off of the stops, or if the added spring force is squashing and stretching the belt slightly causing it to ride lower in the front pulley even though the weights are all the way out. Top speed now varies from 62-65 mph at the rev limiter depending on the wind. I used to get 67 every day easily. The good news is that there is quite a bit of untouched metal on the face of both pulleys. Once I settle on how much spring and mass to use, it occurs to me that there may be another big advantage to the sliders. It might be possible to tune a set for any given combination of parts on a bike by looking at the remaining virgin metal. We might be able to remove some of the material on the part of the slider that is in contact with the variator at the outer stop little by little until full belt travel is achieved.
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The last image shows the famous torque grooves. Honda is using a progressive profile. Kick down should become less active at high speeds.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:11 PM   #185
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Did modifying the exhaust make it obnoxiously loud?
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:41 PM   #186
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It's pretty loud on full blat. While cruising it is barely audible above my music.
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:55 PM   #187
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The changes made by the super stiff contra spring are a wash and choosing to change it will depend on your intended use of the scooter. The big advantage is increased 5-40 acceleration. I haven't done any timed runs in this range but the spring makes the trans instantly down shift over 1,500 rpm when cruising at 20 mph and gunning it. With the initial increase in speed that is also occurring, the rpms jump right from 5,000 to 6,800 and continue to wind up to 7,400 by 40 mph. The 0-50 times are down some to between 12.5 and 11.8. call it 12.2 which is .5 seconds lower than before the spring but this maybe too broad a test to really show what is happening between any rolling speed and 40 mph. The problem with 0-50 as a test is that the launch is very slow. There is a programmed delay in the engines output on take off. I haven't timed it but it is at least half a second. Maybe more. No changes will ever effect this unless you get into a replacement fuel ECU or something. So this is always dead data right in the front of the timed run. The next issue with using 0-50 as a yard stick for playing with the trans is that by 50 you are close to max gearing and will be near the power peak so changes in 40-50 times will be very much less affected by the small amount of gearing change that is left at the top of the gearing. 50 mph used to run about 7,000 under load and now with the spring it runs at 7,400 as it is still getting 400 rpm of kick down under high load. It used to be much less active with only about 150 rpm of change between light cruise and gunning it. The change in gearing (as indicated by the change in rpm for any given speed) is much less between 40-50 than it is between 5-40 mph. But by far the longest portion of the run is from 40-50 which isn't going to change much regardless of what you do to the trans operating points. What I am trying to say is that most of the .5 second improvement from the stiff spring is between 5-40 mph at which it becomes pretty significant. This is more beneficial to shooting through city traffic than climbing a hill on the highway. For blasting around in the city, having a stiff spring to spool up quickly and launch you out of corners is really fun.
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But in just a day of riding I can see several down sides to a super stiff contra spring. There is an obvious increase in the running losses in the belt. I think the increased compression on the sides of the belt, and the increased tension, are creating added friction and heat losses. The loaded hill climb speeds are down a percent to 49 mph. Top speed is often way down to the 63 mph range. Some of this my be due to the tighter belt riding down lower in the front pulley but I am also sometimes not making it to redline, indicating some loss somewhere. Fuel economy is also down 6% to 90 mpgUS. Partly due to higher rpms everywhere but I think also due to increased friction losses in the belt. Maybe a stiffer Kevlar belt could give some of this back but for highway commuters it looks like the light factory spring with lighter sliders might be the better option. An after market torque pulley with more aggressive slots could give a similar amount of kickdown using the stock spring as what the stiff spring gives now, without increasing the losses in the belt, but I haven't seen one for less than $160 and I am not ready to go there.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:13 AM   #188
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It seems that increased belt losses from the 35% tighter spring can actually amount to a sizable amount of hp. In the range of .1 hp? This is like running an 80 watt heating element in your belt. No wonder the front outer pulley has cooling fins. Changing the torque driver to one with a more aggressive torque slot would give the benefits of more active kick down without the draw back of increased belt losses. The tight spring does eliminate a lot of the harmonic belt flapping that is sometimes felt at speeds above 50 mph with the stock set up though.
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My spring is way too much. I am going back to stock. And maybe someday to the KN Planing torque driver which is $80 and has a selection of three slot profiles to choose from.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:12 AM   #189
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I may also get a Malossi X Kevlar belt to play with now that I see how much loss is involved from over working the stock belt. The X belt may be good for a few percent in top speed all by itself if it is less compressible and less lossy. Honda is using a similar design as OEM in the newer Silverwings.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:22 PM   #190
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I just saw this. Somebody got a great deal on a zero mile PCX125 with custom paint from the Honda tour give away. $2200 on ebay. What does that make a used 125 with 2,000 miles worth?
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/12099...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:24 PM   #191
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Got my fun scooter...

Got my new PCX150 in Red, couple of days ago. Loads of fun. I'm using it for my short office commute. Thanks to all the technical and pricing discussions on this thread which helped me in this purchase. Paid 3950 OTD with 5 year extended warranty.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:16 AM   #192
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I installed the Givi standard windscreen. It does have some noise coming just over the top edge. Depending on where this hits you it might be pretty loud right under the chin bar of your helmet. My Schuberth helmet seals all the way around my neck so even at it's worst the noise is not that bad for me. You can hear different performance of the windscreen by raising up and ducking to play with the wind stream. Ducking all the way down so your head is behind the screen is perfectly silent but is too low to ride that way for anything more than a short top speed blast on the highway to get to the next exit. Rise up on the bike so the wind is hitting lower on the chest and you are back to the normal noise of your helmet. I may try to tip the screen back some to lower it a little by heating it and flexing it if this wouldn't make it get into the mirrors more when at full lock. The PCX is much quicker with the bigger windscreen now as it easily hits redline with less than full throttle. I expect fuel economy to be up as well. It is much warmer to ride as well. 33F last night. My fingers got cold as I had my leather gloves on. I should have grabbed my thick winter gloves and I may even look into getting a high end pair of super warm mittens since the PCX is so easy to ride not having a clutch.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:03 PM   #193
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I lowered my Givi windscreen by heating it along the hand crease and bending it back. The noise is much better as the air strikes lower now at the collar bone. It is still the perfect height to give a good wet weather crouch, leaning forward with your line of sight just over the edge where the turbulence over the top of the screen acts as a blow drier to blast water drops straight down so I never even have to wipe my face shield until I get into slower boulevard travel. It didn't make much improvement to the fuel economy even though it looks more aero now and I never had a chance to do any timed runs before moving on to installing the slider style variator weights. It took a surprising amount of heat. That polycarbonate is rugged! It took one heat gun in each hand to get it hot enough to move. Take some masking tape and pull the shield back partway to hold it while you apply the heat all along the handguards and crease. Measure before and after with a tape measure as shown. I moved mine down and back 2.5 inches in two stages. That is as low as you can go as the mirrors become a problem at that point. I ended up doing some additional trimming at the top two corners with an 1/8 inch router bit in my dremmel tool. Very easy and no chance of cracking. Play it careful from line as the blade can chatter wide on you. It is easy to sand another 1mm with a sanding block to get the final shape. It's quieter, better in the rain, and the hand protection moves out a little wider.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:22 PM   #194
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My girlfriend is interested in learning how to ride. She is rather short (5 foot tall) and there aren't too many two wheelers that fit her. She sat on a Honda PCX150 today and really liked it.
Any female riders here that could give some feedback? What's the horsepower on the 150cc?
Thanks!
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:08 AM   #195
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The Honda PCX is a very high quality machine. Very easy to hold up because all the weight is so low. Very easy to learn how to ride with the auto trans. Turns in like bicycle. No muscle required. The 150 will top out at 65 mph. Used 125's are popping up on ebay for $2300 and can hit 59 mph.
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