ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Fluff > Sports
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 10-18-2012, 09:13 AM   #526
Flaco
Zombie Holocaust
 
Flaco's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Historic Montrose CO
Oddometer: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by OConnor View Post
Meh. Drugs may have enhanced his performance but the guy is still an unbelievable athlete and it's sad to get the impression that some of you are absolutely giddy about the whole ordeal.
I simply feel vindicated.

I've been enduring all the hype about this great athlete when I knew it wasn't true.

Did you find him to be an unbelievable athlete when Indurain absolutely blew his doors off in the final time trial of the 1995 TdF?

He's not such a special athlete if you take away the fact that his body responded to the drugs better than his competitors. In the same way that his body responded to the cancer drugs and helped him to beat cancer.

Physiologically he's average among elite cyclists. He just had the best pharma backing. Amgen? He had the best chemists.

It's sad to see some of you refuse to remove your blinders. The problem is not gone by any means.
__________________
VIVA LOS MTNADS
Flaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 09:29 AM   #527
Shuffler
Getting a grip...
 
Shuffler's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Niwot CO
Oddometer: 1,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaco View Post
I simply feel vindicated.

I've been enduring all the hype about this great athlete when I knew it wasn't true.

Did you find him to be an unbelievable athlete when Indurain absolutely blew his doors off in the final time trial of the 1995 TdF?

He's not such a special athlete if you take away the fact that his body responded to the drugs better than his competitors. In the same way that his body responded to the cancer drugs and helped him to beat cancer.

Physiologically he's average among elite cyclists. He just had the best pharma backing. Amgen? He had the best chemists.

It's sad to see some of you refuse to remove your blinders. The problem is not gone by any means.
+100 ...

Wish we could turn back time ... put a non-doped Lance against any others non-doped ... I'd love to see what could have happened. Had he been in the Lemond era, Greg likely would have crushed him. Perhaps Indurain was on something, who knows...but that guy was low-key and well respected.

The denial of the general public that Lance was some kind of exceptional 'phenom' is annoying...it was all built on science and enhanced with drugs. I suppose he was doped to the gills for the marathons & triathalons, too. Yeah, he's awesome.
__________________
________________________________
AMA | COHVCO | TPA | NCTR | BRC
Niwot Synthetics
KTM 950A | KTM 300XCW | BMW R1100RT

Shuffler screwed with this post 10-18-2012 at 09:35 AM
Shuffler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 09:35 AM   #528
PoundSand
Beastly Adventurer
 
PoundSand's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: socal
Oddometer: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaco View Post
I simply feel vindicated.

I've been enduring all the hype about this great athlete when I knew it wasn't true.

Did you find him to be an unbelievable athlete when Indurain absolutely blew his doors off in the final time trial of the 1995 TdF?
there are plenty who are suspicious of indurain as well...

quite frankly, all of the top cyclists are suspect- look at the top 10 lists for the past decade or two, and the winners for the last 50 years, and i'll bet you'll find more people implicated in doping than not.

PoundSand screwed with this post 10-18-2012 at 12:42 PM
PoundSand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 10:51 AM   #529
Shuffler
Getting a grip...
 
Shuffler's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Niwot CO
Oddometer: 1,665




__________________
________________________________
AMA | COHVCO | TPA | NCTR | BRC
Niwot Synthetics
KTM 950A | KTM 300XCW | BMW R1100RT
Shuffler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 11:15 AM   #530
Ben Carufel
Boxer Addict
 
Ben Carufel's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Oddometer: 643
I was going to say what PoundSand said above. How do we know that Indurain wasn't cheating, as well?

Unfortunately, that's just the way it goes. Either way it still doesn't help or show well on Armstrong that he is trying to defend himself until what can only be called the "bitter end".

I sent a quick note to Trek Bikes yesterday about my unhappiness with their "handling" of the Greg LeMond situation over the past years. Basically just said I'm not going to consider a Trek product until/unless they issue a public apology to Greg.

I don't see that happening, but I suppose that's OK. I really liked my Tommaso and when I get another road bike, I'll probably get another one of those.
__________________
Ben Carufel
'11 BMW F800ST - '02 BMW R1150GSA - '72 BMW R60/5
Other bikes to appear above shortly, rest assured...
Ben Carufel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:10 PM   #531
Saso
chronically restless
 
Saso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Northern California
Oddometer: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
there are plenty who are suspicious of indurain as well...

quite frankly, all of the top cyclists are suspect- look at the top 10 lists for the past decade or two, and the winners for the last 50 years, and i'll be you'll find more people implicated in doping than not.
But of course Greg was clean.

From a post in JM:

1977
1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)
1978
1st Overall Vuelta de Bisbee
3rd TTT Junior World Championship
1979
1st World Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st Nevada City Classic
2nd Track Pursuit, Junior World Championship
1980
1st Overall Circuit de la Sarthe
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall, Circuit des Ardennes
1981
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stage 1
1st Stage 7
1st Stage 2a Tour de Picardie
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Route du Sud
3rd Critérium du Dauphiné
1982
1st Overall Tour de l'Avenir
2nd Stage 2
1st Stage 4
1st Stage 5
1st Stage 8
3rd Stage 10
3rd Tour de Corse
2nd Tour Méditerranéen (FRA)
2nd UCI Road World Championships, Men
3d Overall Tirreno - Adriatico
1st Stage 3
1983
1st World Road Race Champion
1st Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 1
1st Stage 5
1st Stage 7b
1st Stage 1 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Super Prestige Pernod International
2nd Stage 1 Tour de Suisse
2nd Stage 3 Tour de Suisse
3rd Stage 4 Tour de Suisse
3rd Stage 7 Tour de Suisse
2nd GP des Nations
2nd Giro di Lombardia
1984
3rd Overall Tour de France
1st Young Rider Classification
1st Stage 3 (TTT)
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 7b
3rd Liège-Bastogne-Liège
1985
2nd Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 3 (TTT)
1st Stage 21
1st Combination classification
2nd Points Classification
4th Mountains Classification
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stage 5
2nd UCI Road World Championships, Men
2nd Vuelta Ciclista al País Vasco
2nd Stage 2
2nd Stage 3
3rd Stage 5b
3rd Giro d'Italia
3rd Stage 12
3rd Pernod-Super Prestige
4th Paris-Roubaix
1986
1st Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 13
1st Combination classification
4th Points Classification
3rd Mountains Classification
4th Overall Giro d'Italia
1st Stage 5
2nd Stage 16
3rd Tour de Suisse
3rd Prologue
3rd Stage 1
2nd Stage 3
2nd Stage 6
2nd Coors Classic
3rd Paris-Nice
2nd Milano-San Remo
3rd Critérium International
1st Stage 4 Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana
2nd Pernod-Super Prestige
1989
1st Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 5
1st Stage 19
1st Stage 21
1st World Road Race Champion
1990
1st Overall Tour de France
1992
1st Overall Tour DuPont
1st Prologue
Saso is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:17 PM   #532
dwes
Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: The Columbus, Ohio
Oddometer: 23
Maybe I missed it, but has anyone wondered how he could be tested as much as he was and the tests came back clean??? Maybe the testing protocols and testers themselves need to be looked at.
dwes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:24 PM   #533
Ben Carufel
Boxer Addict
 
Ben Carufel's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Oddometer: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwes View Post
Maybe I missed it, but has anyone wondered how he could be tested as much as he was and the tests came back clean??? Maybe the testing protocols and testers themselves need to be looked at.
From what I understand -- and I am no expert -- the tests pre-2000 were somewhat easy to pass.

In 2000, if I recall correctly, they introduced the EPO testing, but Dr. Ferrari figured out that by injecting EPO directly into the blood stream in small quantities (micro dosing) and also reintroducing fresh blood (which had been drawn -- clean -- at an earlier date) for the purposes of dilution, the hematocrit levels could be brought down to "normal" range in time for a test.

But it's important to realize that the "500 tests passed" myth is just that -- a myth. I think it was Cyclismas who came up with a "maximum" number of 236 tests, which they were able to then somewhat verify via UCI and USADA records.
__________________
Ben Carufel
'11 BMW F800ST - '02 BMW R1150GSA - '72 BMW R60/5
Other bikes to appear above shortly, rest assured...
Ben Carufel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:27 PM   #534
Flaco
Zombie Holocaust
 
Flaco's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Historic Montrose CO
Oddometer: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
there are plenty who are suspicious of indurain as well...

quite frankly, all of the top cyclists are suspect- look at the top 10 lists for the past decade or two, and the winners for the last 50 years, and i'll be you'll find more people implicated in doping than not.
Cadel Evans. I have never heard him implicated.
__________________
VIVA LOS MTNADS
Flaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:46 PM   #535
PoundSand
Beastly Adventurer
 
PoundSand's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: socal
Oddometer: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaco View Post
Cadel Evans. I have never heard him implicated.
i didn't say everyone- i said i'd bet more implicated than not. and because he hasn't been implicated (yet) doesn't make him nos suspect.

i was going to do some research real quick here, but turns out i don't need to, and it's worse than i thought - i thought i was engaging in a little hyperbole, but turns out, i wasn't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_...France_winners
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_...2C_1998_-_2012

and i didn't recall this, but indurain did test positive for salbutamol, banned by the french sports ministry in the Tour de L'Oise, but he ended up not being sanctioned for it; apparently other bodies allowed it for asthma sufferers, so they ended up not sanctioning him for it even though the french ministry didn't make allowances for it? a little whack, but whatever.

PoundSand screwed with this post 10-18-2012 at 12:51 PM
PoundSand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:48 PM   #536
Flaco
Zombie Holocaust
 
Flaco's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Historic Montrose CO
Oddometer: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwes View Post
Maybe I missed it, but has anyone wondered how he could be tested as much as he was and the tests came back clean??? Maybe the testing protocols and testers themselves need to be looked at.
Everybody needs to be looked at in this deal.

USA Cycling in particular decided not to control cyclists prior to at least one world championships because they knew all their top guys would fail....and there would be controversy.

All they did was put it off.

And, yeah...we know the testing protocols were shit. No test for EPO until maybe 2002 (?)

I'm surprised that we're not talking about how these fuckers were JUNKIES! The only difference is that the dragon they were chasing was victory. They lived like criminals, they were routinely breaking the law, cheating worthless scum.

They could have walked away at any time, despite what Levi said, nobody forced them to cheat. Nobody forced them to stay inside the cheating culture. They saw a way to game the system and ran that program until they were forced into the light.

Lance is the worst among them.
__________________
VIVA LOS MTNADS
Flaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:51 PM   #537
Flaco
Zombie Holocaust
 
Flaco's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Historic Montrose CO
Oddometer: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
i didn't say everyone- i said i'd bet more implicated than not.

i was going to do some research real quick here, but turns out i don't need to, and it's worse than i thought - i thought i was engaging in a little hyperbole, but turns out, i wasn't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_...France_winners
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_...2C_1998_-_2012


I did read where you wrote 'all top cyclists are suspect' hence my response. I understand now that wasn't precisely what you meant. Cheers.
__________________
VIVA LOS MTNADS
Flaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 12:58 PM   #538
cogitate
Beastly Adventurer
 
cogitate's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: North of the Border, CA
Oddometer: 4,804
Is your point that he could not have had those results clean?

I think the ups and downs of Gregs career show a normal pattern. Gunshot wounds not withstanding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saso View Post
But of course Greg was clean.

From a post in JM:

1977
1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)
1978
1st Overall Vuelta de Bisbee
3rd TTT Junior World Championship
1979
1st World Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st National Road Race Champion (Junior)
1st Nevada City Classic
2nd Track Pursuit, Junior World Championship
1980
1st Overall Circuit de la Sarthe
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Overall, Circuit des Ardennes
1981
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stage 1
1st Stage 7
1st Stage 2a Tour de Picardie
1st Nevada City Classic
3rd Route du Sud
3rd Critérium du Dauphiné
1982
1st Overall Tour de l'Avenir
2nd Stage 2
1st Stage 4
1st Stage 5
1st Stage 8
3rd Stage 10
3rd Tour de Corse
2nd Tour Méditerranéen (FRA)
2nd UCI Road World Championships, Men
3d Overall Tirreno - Adriatico
1st Stage 3
1983
1st World Road Race Champion
1st Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 1
1st Stage 5
1st Stage 7b
1st Stage 1 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Super Prestige Pernod International
2nd Stage 1 Tour de Suisse
2nd Stage 3 Tour de Suisse
3rd Stage 4 Tour de Suisse
3rd Stage 7 Tour de Suisse
2nd GP des Nations
2nd Giro di Lombardia
1984
3rd Overall Tour de France
1st Young Rider Classification
1st Stage 3 (TTT)
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 7b
3rd Liège-Bastogne-Liège
1985
2nd Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 3 (TTT)
1st Stage 21
1st Combination classification
2nd Points Classification
4th Mountains Classification
1st Overall Coors Classic
1st Stage 5
2nd UCI Road World Championships, Men
2nd Vuelta Ciclista al País Vasco
2nd Stage 2
2nd Stage 3
3rd Stage 5b
3rd Giro d'Italia
3rd Stage 12
3rd Pernod-Super Prestige
4th Paris-Roubaix
1986
1st Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 13
1st Combination classification
4th Points Classification
3rd Mountains Classification
4th Overall Giro d'Italia
1st Stage 5
2nd Stage 16
3rd Tour de Suisse
3rd Prologue
3rd Stage 1
2nd Stage 3
2nd Stage 6
2nd Coors Classic
3rd Paris-Nice
2nd Milano-San Remo
3rd Critérium International
1st Stage 4 Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana
2nd Pernod-Super Prestige
1989
1st Overall Tour de France
1st Stage 5
1st Stage 19
1st Stage 21
1st World Road Race Champion
1990
1st Overall Tour de France
1992
1st Overall Tour DuPont
1st Prologue
__________________
bikeless.

My book "If You Look at Your Health in a New Way..." is available here
and as PDF here
available in Kindle format here
cogitate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 01:16 PM   #539
PoundSand
Beastly Adventurer
 
PoundSand's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: socal
Oddometer: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by cogitate View Post
Is your point that he could not have had those results clean?

I think the ups and downs of Gregs career show a normal pattern. Gunshot wounds not withstanding.
even lemond is suspect.
PoundSand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 02:12 PM   #540
Flaco
Zombie Holocaust
 
Flaco's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Historic Montrose CO
Oddometer: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
there are plenty who are suspicious of indurain as well...

quite frankly, all of the top cyclists are suspect- look at the top 10 lists for the past decade or two, and the winners for the last 50 years, and i'll bet you'll find more people implicated in doping than not.
Agreed that Indurain is also suspect BUT he didn't act like a tremendous asshole to everyone around him.
__________________
VIVA LOS MTNADS
Flaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014