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Old 10-18-2012, 11:15 AM   #46
toro618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
Let me just say, that the video in question on TTC, is a typical exaggeration yet goal of learning your balance in a turn. When I teach new riders to our sport, we have to do 2 things, explain and demonstrate. WHen we demonstrate, it is seemingly neat and necessary to show you the extreme or "what you can do" with the information we're passing along. you will start out just trying to lean the bike somewhat, and compensating for the bikes new "balance point" by adjusting the position of your body.

Just like racing, showing you a jump, really good riders might just knack knack, mid air or a big kick/whip, but that doesnt really change how a jump needs to be taken as far as takeoff and landing.

In trials you are working without centripetal (is that the word) forces you get when riding at speeds above a jogging pace. think of the bike's footpegs and handlebars, at all times as a balance beam, a balance beam that changes the position of the middle balance point, depending on what turn dynamics are in play. you shift your weight to compensate a left turn, by loading the outside peg in a turn. I like my beginners to use this rule of thumb for flat ground turns... Whichever direction you turn, you MUST allow that arm to become STRAIGHT. The handlbar is now being held UP by your arm, the other arm bends, so that your body can distribute the weight onto the other arm a little but mostly the peg on the opposite side of the turn.

Litterally if you turn left, you lean the bike over to the left, and you left arm goes straight, and holds pressure holding the bike from falling any farther than you need it to to complete a turn. At the same time you body shifts all (or most) of the weight of your body, to the right peg. this is the balancing "act" the more you lean the bike the more weight has to compensate for the weight of the bike that is trying to pull you to the ground on the left. All of this struggle as it were, is about reaching a balance or stale mate as it were with the changing center of balance left to right.

That film on TTC, shows a really good extreme turning condition with bike demonstrated at an extreme lean, yet often useful position. IT IS something you need to be able to do, as practice. When I practice most anything, I try to make test/practice more extreme than what I hope to have to use in a section. WHY? I have always managed to have to use a skill exagerated out to extreme, time and again, to recover from maybe slipping off a hill or approach wrong.

I'll state TURNING is the most basic principle in trials. It should be so easy to you to do like the video shows, at "very soon" in your trials career. It is like dribbling is to basketball. if you cannot dribble naturally without looking like a dork, you cant do anything in basketball...

SO, just keep on working on your turns. I swear, that you should be able to accomplish the same position after an hour of practicing figure 8's. That is if you practice like I do, I do it until I can do it, before I do other things. be it in 20 minutes shifts or a full hour at a time.

For another "what it is worth" my students are required to do 20 figure 8's anytime we unload the bikes from garage or pickup... And anytime they are waiting "their turn" on a practice section or what have you. It is that important. You then take these figure 8's and visually lay them out over ALL terrain, hills ditches, and you rotate that 8 all around that stuff. when you do turns in your sleep so to speak, then you are ready (grasshopper) to be challenged more in trials...
Sting, when you teach the proper technique of slow, controlled, and exagerated turning do you find that most are better at turning to one side than the other?

I know in my case when doing slow figure 8's and turning left I naturally lean the bike way over into the turn and simultaniously weigh the outside peg, bend the outside knee, and throw my wieght on the outside knee. However, when turning right I have to tell my brain to bend the outside knee a little more and tell my brain to throw my weight to the outside knee more....it does not come as naturally. Who knows, my left side may be a little slower from all the crashes I've had on the right side of my head
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:51 PM   #47
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Toro,

I get this question more than you think, "live" in fact just this past week Dad has a new 16 year old "recruit" that we'll be working with, so that make like rider 40 something, we've taken under our wing (pun intended).

Some depends maybe on your background and muscle dexterity, I had to work on dribbling basketball left handed, jon my left handed friend did it easily either hand, at least it seemed to me... However, dad figures he practiced when I wasn't around though, lol... but he was a natural athlete at many things.

But yeah, for instance: Dad started "riding in general) in the 60's and by early 70's dirt riding, then cycle club for Thornton area in colorado (racing MX and what not), I think he said again this past weekend that left turns seemed easier for him. If you watch motocross, lefts are easier because you drag your left foot, right foot on brake. This last year they had a supercross where the start turn, it was NOT a left, seems like it about wiped out half the field as well... Anyway for dad, left might still be, but he had a bad left shoulder (broken collar bone and dislocation of that bone at his shoulder) injury now so not sure which side is worst now. But for me, growing up, most of our "practice" sections while I grew up over compensated by being right turns.

++++edit+++
Believe it or not Right turns might be easier for me, maybe slightly. but I feel pretty damn proficient at either, except where I need to wheelie turn on a off camber right turn. I'm short legged, stepping down anything scares me a little. But, you see, I lived for 40 years now of riding trials, in a kind of "boot camp" attitude where naturally if I'd set up anything like a "drill" or for your thoughts, as a practice section; I would then ride it maybe even 30 times any day I ride, unless it was just too easy. I have a killer section at the river off behind our farm, that I have been riding for 7 or 8 years, can only clean it about 3 times in a day (when emphasising on hops and many skills at least) and it is long. if it was a trials, not that hard to just do what you need to to clean it, but with practicing hops, and all that while doing this, I don't clean it very often yet, but getting closer. used to ride 4 nights a week in summer plus weekends, ride that section at least 3 of those days. plus other skill sections dad has designed...

Plus with my dad, when I started, and having to gain confidence, it was exactly what Ryan young says, "ride it until you clean it 3 times in a row! then ride it backwards! Same thing, 3 times in a row clean, then add something, make the turn tighter or something" I like to be able to cross any log, brick, anything from potentially any of the millions of possible angles and positions...

But 1st things first, get some confidence, get it to where getting over a particular log or what not, is just fun and natural. I was kind of timid really young, so I had to make myself overcome fears like everyone else, but in reality, I was young enough that I wanted to be able to go where dad and the big kids could go, so I think dad was able to push me harder than we can just any one else you know...

Keep this one in your thoughts when you get your bike out to ride...

I have said over and over, when I start my bike (not as much now, but for several years) I was made aware (being the son you know) that you don't give the bike any throttle until it warms up, other than what it takes to not "let it die" (& the back story to this, which will be another essay, but more about older bikes and how they might die then spend 20 minutes trying to get it started again). Anyhow, so I drilled figure 8's while the bike warmed up, ANYTIME, but I loved to do this, I dunno why, it is probably comparable to football, and I hated drills for that but for some reason, I still to this day, love it on a trials bike, go figure huh?.

I add to this, just trying to balance at stop as long as I can. Dad and I have pretty special bond too, I always wanted to be as good as he was in my eyes, and he loves drills that improve yourself, from pingpong to cycles.

We'd work on the bikes in the dead freezing of winter, in a single car garage, and when done take turns riding that bike, in the single car garage, mostly figure 8's, or you know not much you can do in an 8x10 garage stall.

BTW, I was also told that at Trials Training Center for the kids summer camps (i think it was) they were told to wait in line balancing, on bike not just lying around so to speak.

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Old 10-18-2012, 07:00 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
Toro,

I get this question more than you think, "live" in fact just this past week Dad has a new 16 year old "recruit" that we'll be working with, so that make like rider 40 something, we've taken under our wing (pun intended).

Some depends maybe on your background and muscle dexterity, I had to work on dribbling basketball left handed, jon my left handed friend did it easily either hand, at least it seemed to me... However, dad figures he practiced when I wasn't around though, lol... but he was a natural athlete at many things.

But yeah, for instance: Dad started "riding in general) in the 60's and by early 70's dirt riding, then cycle club for Thornton area in colorado (racing MX and what not), I think he said again this past weekend that left turns seemed easier for him. If you watch motocross, lefts are easier because you drag your left foot, right foot on brake. This last year they had a supercross where the start turn, it was NOT a left, seems like it about wiped out half the field as well... Anyway for dad, left might still be, but he had a bad left shoulder (broken collar bone and dislocation of that bone at his shoulder) injury now so not sure which side is worst now. But for me, growing up, most of our "practice" sections while I grew up over compensated by being right turns.

++++edit+++
Believe it or not Right turns might be easier for me, maybe slightly. but I feel pretty damn proficient at either, except where I need to wheelie turn on a off camber right turn. I'm short legged, stepping down anything scares me a little. But, you see, I lived for 40 years now of riding trials, in a kind of "boot camp" attitude where naturally if I'd set up anything like a "drill" or for your thoughts, as a practice section; I would then ride it maybe even 30 times any day I ride, unless it was just too easy. I have a killer section at the river off behind our farm, that I have been riding for 7 or 8 years, can only clean it about 3 times in a day (when emphasising on hops and many skills at least) and it is long. if it was a trials, not that hard to just do what you need to to clean it, but with practicing hops, and all that while doing this, I don't clean it very often yet, but getting closer. used to ride 4 nights a week in summer plus weekends, ride that section at least 3 of those days. plus other skill sections dad has designed...

Plus with my dad, when I started, and having to gain confidence, it was exactly what Ryan young says, "ride it until you clean it 3 times in a row! then ride it backwards! Same thing, 3 times in a row clean, then add something, make the turn tighter or something" I like to be able to cross any log, brick, anything from potentially any of the millions of possible angles and positions...

But 1st things first, get some confidence, get it to where getting over a particular log or what not, is just fun and natural. I was kind of timid really young, so I had to make myself overcome fears like everyone else, but in reality, I was young enough that I wanted to be able to go where dad and the big kids could go, so I think dad was able to push me harder than we can just any one else you know...

Keep this one in your thoughts when you get your bike out to ride...

I have said over and over, when I start my bike (not as much now, but for several years) I was made aware (being the son you know) that you don't give the bike any throttle until it warms up, other than what it takes to not "let it die" (& the back story to this, which will be another essay, but more about older bikes and how they might die then spend 20 minutes trying to get it started again). Anyhow, so I drilled figure 8's while the bike warmed up, ANYTIME, but I loved to do this, I dunno why, it is probably comparable to football, and I hated drills for that but for some reason, I still to this day, love it on a trials bike, go figure huh?.

I add to this, just trying to balance at stop as long as I can. Dad and I have pretty special bond too, I always wanted to be as good as he was in my eyes, and he loves drills that improve yourself, from pingpong to cycles.

We'd work on the bikes in the dead freezing of winter, in a single car garage, and when done take turns riding that bike, in the single car garage, mostly figure 8's, or you know not much you can do in an 8x10 garage stall.

BTW, I was also told that at Trials Training Center for the kids summer camps (i think it was) they were told to wait in line balancing, on bike not just lying around so to speak.
With all this drilling and practice, did you ever get a chance to just ride? LOL..just kidding. I agree with your dad....practicing drills is key to this art. I only picked up trails riding last month at almost 50....so I spend any time I get on the trials bike doing drills instead of just going out for a ride.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:10 PM   #49
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Throttle Control

Probably going to step on toes, but when I attended trials schools in '70s given by Mick Andrews (World Champion Trials and Scottish 6 Days Champion 5 times) the emphasis was on Throttle Control. It can get you out of trouble faster than anything else. When in a tight turn using your "technics" and start to fall to the inside gently squeeze a little trottle on and float the front tire through the turn, it will straighten you back up, conversly should you fall outside, ease off the throttle and you'll fall back inside. I am a firm believer after 35 yrs that the throttle will have the last say in your success or failure. It MUST be used in conjunction with your "technic"'

My 2 cents!!

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Old 10-19-2012, 06:54 AM   #50
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toro618 View Post
With all this drilling and practice, did you ever get a chance to just ride? LOL..just kidding. I agree with your dad....practicing drills is key to this art. I only picked up trails riding last month at almost 50....so I spend any time I get on the trials bike doing drills instead of just going out for a ride.
Fondly, maybe to you I overdid the "boot camp" part of the story... Maybe, but compared to what others do about RIDING TRIALS without a bit of motivation, I'll stick by it.

Drills, Like I tried to convey a little, aren't that hard to work into a routine and do them when you might just be "waiting" like while my bike warms up, I could just sit there and wait, or make the piston swell up and just take off for a ride.

There are so many things to work on, I had 40 years to work on them, and I am NOT some kind of Geoff Aaron/Pat Smage either, maybe if I had kept with it from Highschool, but I have always been under-tall (short & chubby).

I watch the DVD from RYP, you ought to see if you can get it. I think it is called "Next" or Up Next!, it is a promotion video for Smage... But you can tell that Smage did little else than practice, and develop his riding skills, his whole life (video is from his High School days I believe) in his free time.

look at all the different settings that they have setup for practicing, that are in the video, Sure on Jackass the movie they might set something up for one time, one take. But most even motivated normal people, won't build all that just for "try this once, then leave and head to somewhere to hang out with your buddies or watch tv..." Plus, I know you don't just click record; ride once; then do the next thing; on and on... no way Jose... probably practiced some of that stuff for several hours a day for a while, some for a few days at least, then probably 15 takes minimum to get it on filf like you want it... plus he played with things (Unicycle and bicycle for example) that the skills used and practiced, added to his MotoTrials skills.

If I give it 10% of the effort he has, well, that makes a pretty good amature-Sr Expert rider.

I know the main thing is to have fun,
but to me it is more fun when you kick "trials' ass" instead of trials kicking your ass.

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Old 10-19-2012, 07:51 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Steelraider View Post
Probably going to step on toes, but when I attended trials schools in '70s given by Mick Andrews (World Champion Trials and Scottish 6 Days Champion 5 times) the emphasis was on Throttle Control. It can get you out of trouble faster than anything else. When in a tight turn using your "technics" and start to fall to the inside gently squeeze a little trottle on and float the front tire through the turn, it will straighten you back up, conversly should you fall outside, ease off the throttle and you'll fall back inside. I am a firm believer after 35 yrs that the throttle will have the last say in your success or failure. It MUST be used in conjunction with your "technic"'

My 2 cents!!

Larry
Larry,

We "kind of" don't ride like we used to though, and it is hard to explain or even argue about how the things he said is true but also not right in the "basics" and when you are trying to develope them, so Im just gonna try a little 2 cents as well.

Today on these bikes, we don't have the 30lb flywheels like we used to. Back in his day we let out the clutch, never did anything with it until the score keeper was ready to punch my scorecard. Plus, the bikes also only weigh about 150 lbs instead of his Ossa that was nearly 220lbs...

Today we slip the clutch, and can ride all day in even 3rd gear going as slow as most do in 1st, but then we twist the throttle and let out the clutch like a Pro Stock dragster to get up and over things. And amature class riders nowdays, go over things we didn't get over as experts and masters did when Mick was in his prime or even when I was in my prime in the early 80s.

The technique of turning is kind of right what you say that Mick says, but done with clutch more, what he's saying is how you do when you're compensating for failing to have your weight in the right place.

that is all I mean... The way you say mick is saying it, as if it is "what you do is..." instead of what it really is, a bailout type of maneuver you can do. If you are tight in the section up against the tape, trying to make a corner, that is really tight, weight is too far inside, Ive been there too many times in the last 40 years, Ill tell you, that you cannot gas it and recover, you GOT to get your weight right.

I hope you don't feel like I stepping on world champion toes, or yours either, I just want to make sure beginners don't begin to think that gas and go (and vice versa) is a technique they can do instead of doing it right.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:14 AM   #52
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You're probably correct in the "new approach" to today's bikes. (never rode one). I saw a world championship round a number of years back when it was held in Jasper, TN. Saw all the new bikes and would have given anything to have gotten to ride one.

Mick gave a trials school at the same location 2-3 yrs later and got to visit with him and wife Jill. Didn't take the school (no bike) but watched for a while. He and Dick Mann started a vintage trials competition in Europe and it seemed to take off for a while. I restored a '70 OSSA MAR and plonked around the woods for a while a few yrs ago (fun) !!

OK, going lurking now. Sorry to interupt!!

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Old 10-19-2012, 09:38 AM   #53
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You're probably correct in the "new approach" to today's bikes. (never rode one). I saw a world championship round a number of years back when it was held in Jasper, TN. Saw all the new bikes and would have given anything to have gotten to ride one.

Mick gave a trials school at the same location 2-3 yrs later and got to visit with him and wife Jill. Didn't take the school (no bike) but watched for a while. He and Dick Mann started a vintage trials competition in Europe and it seemed to take off for a while. I restored a '70 OSSA MAR and plonked around the woods for a while a few yrs ago (fun) !!

OK, going lurking now. Sorry to interupt!!

Larry
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:54 PM   #54
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Mick, My hero of my youth. Got to finally ride with him,great guy.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX1AL...ture=related:D
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:48 PM   #55
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Not to trivialize the question but as long as you have to think about what you are doing, you're not ready for prime time. You are safest when it's all natural, muscle memory. If you have to think you've lost too many miliseconds before the input to send you in the right (correct) direction.

Just my 2 cents after riding for pretty near 50 years, and no, I do not know it all.

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Old 10-21-2012, 03:48 PM   #56
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Am I doing anything properly here besides wearing a helmet?
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:33 PM   #57
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Knees do not belong against the tank. Outside knee should be about 12 inches out and inside 3-4 out with your hips pointed towards the direction you are going. There is many more points, but one thing at a time. Have fun!
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:55 PM   #58
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I'm not sure you have your helmet on right. Doh! just kidding
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:07 PM   #59
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Knees do not belong against the tank. Outside knee should be about 12 inches out and inside 3-4 out with your hips pointed towards the direction you are going. There is many more points, but one thing at a time. Have fun!
Cripes! I'm 55 years old... if I point my hips in the direction I'm going the only place I'm going is the hospital! Next weekend is the Grenogue, De meet I'll try not to hurt myself there... I'll do a lot of observing of the other riders.
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:32 PM   #60
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HMMm. I`m 53 and just got back from a two day vintage event. 54 sections later my little cota only gave up 9 points! What a sweet machine!
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