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Old 10-23-2012, 11:49 AM   #571
Ben Carufel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
what is 100% for sure ... USADA has zero concrete evidence of doping. it's 100% based on testimony. which regardless of how may millions $$ USDA spent to build up. it's still testimony without any hard evidence.
Sooo hey, Jerry Sandusky was convicted of raping little boys. There was no hard evidence, just testimony. However, he was still convicted. You think he's innocent?

I'm not in any way saying that doping in cycling is akin to raping little boys, but it seems that if conviction based on multiple witnesses testifying works in one instance, it should work in another, right?
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:42 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
. WTF did this entire process accomplish?


soon as I dig out my old Livestrong rubber bracelet. will be wearing it to show support.
It accomplishes what the mission statement of the USADA says. To defend clean athletes.

And yea, you'll be showing something wearing the yellow bracelet
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:00 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by Ben Carufel View Post
Sooo hey, Jerry Sandusky was convicted of raping little boys. There was no hard evidence, just testimony. However, he was still convicted. You think he's innocent?

I'm not in any way saying that doping in cycling is akin to raping little boys, but it seems that if conviction based on multiple witnesses testifying works in one instance, it should work in another, right?
the two have nothing in common

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It accomplishes what the mission statement of the USADA says. To defend clean athletes.

And yea, you'll be showing something wearing the yellow bracelet
what the USADA did in no way shape or form help clean athletes. all it did was waste millions of our tax dollars. what actually cleaned up athletes was more likely changes/advances in drug testing procedures off times. making it all but impossible to escape detection.

yes I'll be proud to wear my livestrong bracelet!!

just a wild guess... but you probably are in the camp that favors keeping pot as class 1 narcotic and locking folks up for pot too.

this has gone beyond if Lance doped or not. who gives a rats ass... if he did this should have been taken care off 10-12 years ago. it's the beyond unfair process reaching back over 12 years that I'm most insulted about.

an 8 year statue of limitations evidently means nothing to USADA when following rules. the same for all the drug tests given to cyclist for the last 12 years. it all means NOTHING when an agency like USADA has an agenda to meet.

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Old 10-23-2012, 02:48 PM   #574
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From Joe Lindsey's Boulder Report:

"He is left, still, with a list of results that would make him a talented racer by any stretch: two stages of the Tour de France (1993, 1995); the 1995 San Sebastian Classic and Tour du Pont; 1996 Fleche Wallonne; and his standout result, the 1993 world championship."
My bad.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:50 PM   #575
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the two have nothing in common
Both convictions are based upon testimony and circumstantial evidence. Other than that, Absolutely Nothing in common...

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[edit]
this has gone beyond if Lance doped or not. who gives a rats ass...
Apparently you do give something more than a rats ass with your unreasoned ramblings about the proceedings resulting in a sociopathic cheat being given his just penalty.

A coupla points to ponder:
1. The statute of limitations is not applicable due to the serial nature of the program and the fact that it went on into the past two years. The SofL is based upon the date of the end of violations. Besides that, there is the racketeering nature of the violations that makes the SofL void.

2. Since you don't race and probably don't know anybody that does race at that level, the cheating by LA's team and all those around it, has no affect on your life. For racers that did or do race and chose not to dope, these F*CKING CHEATERS stole their opportunity to compete at the highest levels of bike racing. Imagine if you knew you had the talent to race with these guys but weren't willing to cheat to do it. You'd probably go back to racing in the US like many of my friends or take up another sport like others. I know several guys that were rockstars here but couldn't make it in Europe. These were guys that competed well stateside with the guys implicated in the "Reasoned Decision".

So when you say this is an unfair process, you're absolutely full of shit. The unfairness of it started in the 90's...
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:25 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by rdcyclist View Post
Apparently you do give something more than a rats ass with your unreasoned ramblings about the proceedings resulting in a sociopathic cheat being given his just penalty.

A coupla points to ponder:
1. The statute of limitations is not applicable due to the serial nature of the program and the fact that it went on into the past two years. The SofL is based upon the date of the end of violations. Besides that, there is the racketeering nature of the violations that makes the SofL void.

2. Since you don't race and probably don't know anybody that does race at that level, the cheating by LA's team and all those around it, has no affect on your life. For racers that did or do race and chose not to dope, these F*CKING CHEATERS stole their opportunity to compete at the highest levels of bike racing. Imagine if you knew you had the talent to race with these guys but weren't willing to cheat to do it. You'd probably go back to racing in the US like many of my friends or take up another sport like others. I know several guys that were rockstars here but couldn't make it in Europe. These were guys that competed well stateside with the guys implicated in the "Reasoned Decision".

So when you say this is an unfair process, you're absolutely full of shit. The unfairness of it started in the 90's...
bullshit... it's been awhile but I used to race. used to put in 6k+ miles per year training. not claiming to know it all, but do claim to have cycled my fair share.

again ... have long passed caring if Lance cheated or not .. that might have been the issue 10-12 years ago. but good grief the crap USADA dug out happened some 12 years ago. ALL the riders involved are either retired or getting ready to. what part of statue of limitations do you not understand?

again ... it's the process and all the millions $$$ of our taxpayer dollars spent for this horseshit. for what??? who or what did it serve?

if you think USADA's process if fair, then you also think throwing folk in jail for pot is fair and the war on drugs is $$$ millions well spent. which by the way you have not answered???

to justify USADA's spending 10 million dollars a year? this bullshit about cleaning up the sport is total horseshit. what cleaned it up with tighter testing and advancing technologies. NOT anything USADA did 10+ years after the fact.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:43 PM   #577
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if you think USADA's process if fair, then you also think throwing folk in jail for pot is fair and the war on drugs is $$$ millions well spent. which by the way you have not answered???

to justify USADA's spending 10 million dollars a year? this bullshit about cleaning up the sport is total horseshit. what cleaned it up with tighter testing and advancing technologies. NOT anything USADA did 10+ years after the fact.
LOL.

Those two statements alone pretty much make your "arguments" sound like pointless rambling.

I, for one, think USADA's process was as fair and necessary as it needed to be. I don't mind that it cost $10mil of taxpayer dollars. We waste a BOATLOAD more than that daily in many other ways. I DO NOT think that throwing folks in jail for pot is fair, and that the bogus war on drugs is fair.

By the way, have you pulled your head out of the sand long enough to see all of these other confessed dopers coming out of the woodwork and the major changes happening in cycling as we speak due to this? Do you honestly think any of that would have happened without the USADA doing what they did and releasing the "Reasoned Decision" on LA?

If you think that these guys would have come forth at some point in this kind of numbers on their own accord, you're outta your gourd. There needed to be some provocation -- some jolt -- to shake things up in the peloton and to get people to change their ways. This was that jolt.

Because your hero LA is at the middle of it, though, the entire thing becomes a big bullshit conspiracy for you?

Again, get your head out of the sand and look at the BIG PICTURE of what has been accomplished in the last two weeks alone for cycling. You really think the sport has been totally clean, even recently? Fat chance. I'd say there's a much better chance of cycling getting cleaned up now that all of this dirty laundry is hanging out there for folks to see...and if Pat McQuaid and company at UCI get thrown out in favor of some newer, less corrupt seeming folks, that's even more progress.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:51 PM   #578
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LOL.

Those two statements alone pretty much make your "arguments" sound like pointless rambling.

I, for one, think USADA's process was as fair and necessary as it needed to be. I don't mind that it cost $10mil of taxpayer dollars. We waste a BOATLOAD more than that daily in many other ways. I DO NOT think that throwing folks in jail for pot is fair, and that the bogus war on drugs is fair.

By the way, have you pulled your head out of the sand long enough to see all of these other confessed dopers coming out of the woodwork and the major changes happening in cycling as we speak due to this? Do you honestly think any of that would have happened without the USADA doing what they did and releasing the "Reasoned Decision" on LA?

If you think that these guys would have come forth at some point in this kind of numbers on their own accord, you're outta your gourd. There needed to be some provocation -- some jolt -- to shake things up in the peloton and to get people to change their ways. This was that jolt.

Because your hero LA is at the middle of it, though, the entire thing becomes a big bullshit conspiracy for you?

Again, get your head out of the sand and look at the BIG PICTURE of what has been accomplished in the last two weeks alone for cycling. You really think the sport has been totally clean, even recently? Fat chance. I'd say there's a much better chance of cycling getting cleaned up now that all of this dirty laundry is hanging out there for folks to see...and if Pat McQuaid and company at UCI get thrown out in favor of some newer, less corrupt seeming folks, that's even more progress.
Exactly.

I'm not sure cy's head is in the sand though...
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:54 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by Ben Carufel View Post
LOL.

Those two statements alone pretty much make your "arguments" sound like pointless rambling.

I, for one, think USADA's process was as fair and necessary as it needed to be. I don't mind that it cost $10mil of taxpayer dollars. We waste a BOATLOAD more than that daily in many other ways. I DO NOT think that throwing folks in jail for pot is fair, and that the bogus war on drugs is fair.

By the way, have you pulled your head out of the sand long enough to see all of these other confessed dopers coming out of the woodwork and the major changes happening in cycling as we speak due to this? Do you honestly think any of that would have happened without the USADA doing what they did and releasing the "Reasoned Decision" on LA?

If you think that these guys would have come forth at some point in this kind of numbers on their own accord, you're outta your gourd. There needed to be some provocation -- some jolt -- to shake things up in the peloton and to get people to change their ways. This was that jolt.

Because your hero LA is at the middle of it, though, the entire thing becomes a big bullshit conspiracy for you?

Again, get your head out of the sand and look at the BIG PICTURE of what has been accomplished in the last two weeks alone for cycling. You really think the sport has been totally clean, even recently? Fat chance. I'd say there's a much better chance of cycling getting cleaned up now that all of this dirty laundry is hanging out there for folks to see...and if Pat McQuaid and company at UCI get thrown out in favor of some newer, less corrupt seeming folks, that's even more progress.
to begin with LA is not my hero. but one would have to be blind to not see all the good that he's done. IMHO the reason why a LOT of folks still support LA is our sense of fair play has been violated.

at least we agree on one thing... none of this would have come out without USADA's bullshit tactics. since all of the riders that confessed to the party line. we will not be hearing about all the strong arm tactics used by USADA to force those confessions out of them.

glad to see you are not for the bullshit war on drugs... throwing folks in jail for pot, resulting in a HUGE portion of our jail population. to me what USADA has done is very similar to what the DEA does everyday.

USADA has had zero effect on cleaning up cycling. Nada... nothing... poof ..
what cleaned up cycling is improvements in testing methods and procedures. now top cyclist have to log in on the web to advise tester where they are at any give time. so many misses and you are toast. then factor in improvement in testing for trace amounts. now labs are talking in terms 50 picograms per milliliter (or 0,000 000 000 05 grams per ml). (picograms- per-liter = parts-per-quadrillion). which the Contador case illustrated perfectly.

again... USADA has NOTHING to do with cleaning up cycling. so they've got to nail down a high profile person like LA to justify their existence. like it or not those are facts!

from another adv thread... could not have type it out better!!

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The problem is more about the process than LA.

USADA has no authority over anything.

They tried to make a criminal case of it and were thrown out of court.

It was ancient history. In a foreign country. Exceeding USADA's own statute of limitations.

Affidavits were collected under threat of harassment.

LA was told: agree to arbitration or we'll ruin you.

Sanctioning bodies for cycling and TDF (of which USADA is not involved) had poor testing procedures. They have improved greatly and the sport is now virtually dope free. USADA had nothing to do with this.

The "to dope or not to dope" is an issue that has come and gone in professional and amateur sports.

The procedure and process USADA has chosen to pursue is an inquisition, not an investigation, as no laws were broken. Why do we have a federally funded agency investigating things which are not illegal, with zero authority yet seemingly unlimited power ?
How far back do you want to go ? How wide do you want to make this ?

How does a US agency, USADA, "strip" Armstrong of his titles ? They didn't give out the titles. In fact, they have nothing to do with the sanctioning of sport. What gives them the right, or power, to strip anyone of anything ? And where do their findings go ? They certainly have no supervision. They are investigating things that are not illegal, so after years of investigation, what do they do ? Hold they're own hearings ?
Who are they to declare person X did something wrong and should be crucified?

If they conducted an investigation, should their findings not be turned over to the sport sanctioning body and let them decide to pursue it or not ?
Especially concerning something in a foreign country.

Should we have a whole series of federal watchdog panels, funded by tax payers but answerable to no one, to investigate all sorts of things they think are a wrong ?

Please keep in mind the guy who did this is a former prosecutor who said he was on a "mission".
I suppose anyone with enough money can assemble a series of investigators and attorneys to expose the evil deeds of anyone they choose.
Sounds like a growth industry: inquisitor generals and kangaroo courts.

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Old 10-23-2012, 09:50 PM   #580
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I love this thread - all these pasty white dough boys - many who suit up in their matching top and bottom lycra riding outfits each weekend and hop on their $10,000+ TDF replica bikes - getting all self-righteous in their rants about morals and ethics, or the lack thereof - the ones who have wanted Lance's head on a platter for the past 12+ years. Why do all of you hate Lance so much? What has he done to hurt you? Those fuckers on Wall Street cheat and lie to make their millions each year at the expense of so many, yet you choose to hate Lance with such intensity? I know, you're jealous. Lance played in the Big Show and you don't and you never will. The Big Show was watched by millions of people because it had nothing to do with mere mortals like you. Who watches you race? They wanted what they want in any Big Show; special effects and a super hero. Lance delivered. He was the Jason Bourne of cycling. His face is etched in our minds just like Matt Damon's. Those epic mountain stages, grueling time trials, podium photo ops., etc.. The only difference is that Lance didn't have Hollywood's magic to create those special effects; he - and the other members of the cast - had to rely on a different kind of wizardry. Their special effects involved bringing physiology to a level that could make them super heroes. Only Lance was different - he had more talent to start with as well as good looks - a match made in Hollywood/elite professional sports heaven. The fact is, none of us really have any clue what it's like to compete on the world stage at the highest level possible. The stakes are beyond what our little minds could ever imagine including the notion that athletes performing at this level treat their bodies the same as the tools/machines they use to compete with. So, tear yourselves away from the copy machine. Leave your hatred there and return to your cubicles and go back to shopping for the latest and greatest groupo online while on your employer's nickel. Millions of people watched a super hero for seven years. They fell in love with him and they fell in love with professional cycling because of him. That's how the Big Show works. As for you - poor you. They don't know you. You're a nobody - nothing but a spiteful, insecure wannabe.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:51 PM   #581
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disgusted by this entire process. USADA should be canned for wasting out tax dollars. WTF did this entire process accomplish?
Y'know, a few months ago this was my sentiment exactly.

But Lance was trying to become the IronMan world champion. That's a really big deal. And some of his teammates who confessed to doping were planning to compete in the Olympics.

I've been strangely fascinated by the whole thing and I just can't believe how it unfolded. I'm really stunned.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:07 PM   #582
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Y'know, a few months ago this was my sentiment exactly.

But Lance was trying to become the IronMan world champion. That's a really big deal. And some of his teammates who confessed to doping were planning to compete in the Olympics.

I've been strangely fascinated by the whole thing and I just can't believe how it unfolded. I'm really stunned.
true story ... I'm in Tulsa which is within easy driving range of Texas. one year when Lance was 15 or so. He did our local triathlon and proceeded to smoke the entire field. all everyone was talking about was the kid that beat everyone silly.

long before Lance was a cyclist, he was a gifted triathlete.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:24 PM   #583
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true story ... I'm in Tulsa which is within easy driving range of Texas. one year when Lance was 15 or so. He did our local triathlon and proceeded to smoke the entire field. all everyone was talking about was the kid that beat everyone silly.

long before Lance was a cyclist, he was a gifted triathlete.
I follow triathlon very closely 'cus I love it and his performances in the last few of them has been astonishing. Amazing at 41. He looks fabulous too.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:52 PM   #584
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I follow triathlon very closely 'cus I love it and his performances in the last few of them has been astonishing. Amazing at 41. He looks fabulous too.
Agreed. I volunteered to ride my motorcycle as a camera bike for the SuperFrog triathlon in Coronado last month. Local news ended up running a clip of me riding next to him as the photographer snapped away.

My Facebook update that day was "What a stunning athlete. Love him or hate him, the guy is a machine." I still stand by that -- but having read the USADA report here and there, and especially the having closely followed the confessions of his former teammates...I no longer am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's clean.

The energy and presence he brought to the SuperFrog was really, really palpable. Wouldn't have been the same event had he not been there.

Also, one of the photographers I had on my bike is someone who knows him somewhat well and it was fun to listen to the two of them chat while we rode alongside him. Lance was pacing the leader by a few hundred meters on the bike stage and he asked the photog who it was in front. The photog told him it was last year's or the year before's USAT world champ (or something suitably impressive) and Lance did one of these faces and said "Shit, I need to pick up the pace. I didn't realize it was that guy!"

Crappy cell phone pic from the news broadcast. I'm the guy on the GSA with the yellow vest off to the right there.

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Old 10-24-2012, 12:02 AM   #585
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....everything that _cy_ said +1

Armstrong doped. So did every one else. Tall poppy syndrome at its horrific worst. Still a Superman in my book - in & out of cycling.

With all his TDF's taken away then the titles go to second place and so on, I say test that lot too....and so on. Don't fuck around - make ALL the tests as rigourous as those subjected on LA. Plus everyone tattle on each other so its all out in the open. Truth and reconciliation style if you like.
At which place do you reckon they'll get to guy thats undertaken that 21 day torture test and IS clean? You wont find a single guy because "thats the way they roll".
In which case, can Lance get his titles back and we can continue as per usual.....because everythings corrupt anyhow.

Rant over.
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