What Dual Sport should Honda build next

[RED CAT]

Xl500.

[ADVNCW]

Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt

It's not about the extra maintenance of a KTM, it's this...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=829642

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833552

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833998

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112127

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=824174

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641042

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286283

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=790639

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=771480

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=775015

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828931

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222515

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830017

When I worked at a shop we had a tech that used to work on KTMs and told me they were unreliable, but since I was on this forum before working there and reading these countless KTM problem threads I had already made that assumption. These are all threads updated within the last 2 weeks and most of these threads are relating to bikes within 5 years old. You don't see another make of single cylinder bike on this forum that have as many collective problem threads as KTM.

I ride a bike that's almost 30 years old so I know all about up keep. I keep my oil changed my chain clean, change fork oil, change brake fluid, adjust valves, etc, but these KTM problems are more than just low interval valve adjustments and difficult oil changes.

The KTM may be a more hi tech bike with a lot more good parts and loads more character than any Jap bike, but they're like a race bike, they need too much attention. The performance edge you loose when riding a jap bike you make up for when not spending thousands of dollars fixing or countless hours working on it. Not everyone has the time or money for that, or do they want to. It's not about knowing how to work on a bike, or being afraid of it, it's that some people don't want to spend valuable time doing it. Maybe if you have no other hobbies, or work 30 hours a week, or hate your wife and want to spend every weekend in the garage away from her, but that's not the case with everybody.

Thanks for taking the time to compile that. Pretty much describes it. I try to follow whether or not some KTMs or the new models are better. Maybe some day, but then the price. In spite of the bs banter, it is true that Honda makes some high-performance motorcycles similar to KTM, but better for reliability and maintenenance.

In spite all of the things we don't like, Honda makes great motorcycles. Some models made just one or two years are seen running for 20-30 years, some have a cult following.

Very unfortunate that the latest offering 250L is 317 lbs, not a great dual sport at all, a mall cruiser or dirt road rider.

Yep, the XR400R resurrected on new frame and suspension and FI, or my dream slightly smaller 300, would be a great dual sport that one could trail ride on real terrain.

[Off the grid]

Originally Posted by ADVNCW

Thanks for taking the time to compile that. Pretty much describes it. I try to follow whether or not some KTMs or the new models are better. Maybe some day, but then the price. In spite of the bs banter, it is true that Honda makes some high-performance motorcycles similar to KTM, but better for reliability and maintenenance.

In spite all of the things we don't like, Honda makes great motorcycles. Some models made just one or two years are seen running for 20-30 years, some have a cult following.

Very unfortunate that the latest offering 250L is 317 lbs, not a great dual sport at all, a mall cruiser or dirt road rider.

Yep, the XR400R resurrected on new frame and suspension and FI, or my dream slightly smaller 300, would be a great dual sport that one could trail ride on real terrain.

If you keep spewing this tripe this thread can go on forever. You have anecdotal evidence at best.

Tell me what "great high-performance bikes" Honda has produced for the dual sport/enduro market in the last 10 years.

And I would put up KTMs RFS series of bikes against any Honda built for reliability and maintenance. Keep in mind that I've actually owned both an XRR and a KTM RFS bike. Pay attention, because this is the important part.....actual empirical evidence.

You do know that dual sport bikes require regular maintenance, right? There is no bike you can just flog.

That "list" you are parading around is due to one thing only...the amount of riders that are on KTMs now. Period.

[ADVNCW]

Originally Posted by RyanR

I clicked over 10,000 miles on my CRF250x this summer, no issues, never left me stranded. Valves have all stayed in spec from first adjustment at 1k miles. I want more power and a 6sp but it's hard to think of selling the CRF when it's been absolutely reliable and taken me there and back without fail so many times.

RyanR, very impressive? How is that CRF250x for riding highway between dirt road etc sections? How is it for say 2 hrs slab before the next dirt?

The local dealer has the 250x and 450x with DS kits sitting there ready to buy....looks nice.

[RED CAT]

With about 55hp would make me happy, as long as it was just as reliable as before. EFI and water cooling would probably do it.

[Sporting Wood]

Originally Posted by Off the grid

If you keep spewing this tripe this thread can go on forever. You have anecdotal evidence at best.

Tell me what "great high-performance bikes" Honda has produced for the dual sport/enduro market in the last 10 years.

And I would put up KTMs RFS series of bikes against any Honda built for reliability and maintenance. Keep in mind that I've actually owned both an XRR and a KTM RFS bike. Pay attention, because this is the important part.....actual empirical evidence.

You do know that dual sport bikes require regular maintenance, right? There is no bike you can just flog.

That "list" you are parading around is due to one thing only...the amount of riders that are on KTMs now. Period.

Well, I've owned plenty of RFS bikes too, and XRs going back to the 1970's, CRF's now... race prepped both kinds too.

IMHO, I do like the RFS bikes but they don't hold up as well as the Honda's. I've seen too many cast pistons crumble and output shafts sheer off to believe in KTM reliability. I think they have a great platform, but the QC just isn't there as it is in Japan.

[Off the grid]

Originally Posted by Sporting Wood

Well, I've owned plenty of RFS bikes too, and XRs going back to the 1970's, CRF's now... race prepped both kinds too.

IMHO, I do like the RFS bikes but they don't hold up as well as the Honda's. I've seen too many cast pistons crumble and output shafts sheer off to believe in KTM reliability. I think they have a great platform, but the QC just isn't there as it is in Japan.

This is my good buddy Hal just a few days ago riding his purchased from new 02 520 EXC with 18k miles on it. Original Engine, top end, valves, etc. You can see he is not easy on his bike. The other bike is a GasGas 2-stroke

Skill aside, does Honda even make a bike that could ride these trails, at these speeds...safely? Does it have a bike that makes the power that can do roll-on wheelies in 3rd and 4th gear to get through puddles and over obstacles? Has it EVER made a bike with the brakes, suspension and HP to ride like this?

This is why everyone I know started on Japanese bikes, and now ride Euro...
Tower City, Pa

[NJ-Brett]

I am odd, and do not want Honda to build a KTM type race bike, but I wish they built a good light mid sized street biased dual sport like the SL350 used to be.
A smooth 350 twin that makes enough power for real street use, a nice seat that would fit two adults, lower weight and seat height, and around 7 or 8 inches of suspension.
No, not a water cooled motocross looking bike, not a 500+ pound street bike with dual sport tires, just a general purpose long lasting practical mid size bike that is happy on the road or in the dirt, no 36 inch seat height, no plastic frames, crappy seats, 1/2 quart of oil, radiators hanging off the bike.

[Off the grid]

Originally Posted by NJ-Brett

I am odd, and do not want Honda to build a KTM type race bike, but I wish they built a good light mid sized street biased dual sport like the SL350 used to be.
A smooth 350 twin that makes enough power for real street use, a nice seat that would fit two adults, lower weight and seat height, and around 7 or 8 inches of suspension.
No, not a water cooled motocross looking bike, not a 500+ pound street bike with dual sport tires, just a general purpose long lasting practical mid size bike that is happy on the road or in the dirt, no 36 inch seat height, no plastic frames, crappy seats, 1/2 quart of oil, radiators hanging off the bike.

Move to Europe. There are dozens to choose from.

[Rufjeep]

Originally Posted by Off the grid

If you keep spewing this tripe this thread can go on forever. You have anecdotal evidence at best.

Tell me what "great high-performance bikes" Honda has produced for the dual sport/enduro market in the last 10 years.

And I would put up KTMs RFS series of bikes against any Honda built for reliability and maintenance. Keep in mind that I've actually owned both an XRR and a KTM RFS bike. Pay attention, because this is the important part.....actual empirical evidence.

You do know that dual sport bikes require regular maintenance, right? There is no bike you can just flog.

That "list" you are parading around is due to one thing only...the amount of riders that are on KTMs now. Period.

I've owned the XRR and RFS as well. So far, my experience has also been that the RFS is at least as reliable as the Honda. The Honda never gave me any issues, and neither has the KTM so far (and it has seen more abuse than the Honda). That being said (and back to the original question), I would love to see Honda offer a modern, street legal, incarnation of the XR400.

[blake716]

Originally Posted by Off the grid

This is my good buddy Hal just a few days ago riding his purchased from new 02 520 EXC with 18k miles on it. Original Engine, top end, valves, etc. You can see he is not easy on his bike. The other bike is a GasGas 2-stroke

Skill aside, does Honda even make a bike that could ride these trails, at these speeds...safely? Does it have a bike that makes the power that can do roll-on wheelies in 3rd and 4th gear to get through puddles and over obstacles? Has it EVER made a bike with the brakes, suspension and HP to ride like this?

This is why everyone I know started on Japanese bikes, and now ride Euro...
Tower City, Pa

[ADVNCW]

Originally Posted by Sporting Wood

Well, I've owned plenty of RFS bikes too, and XRs going back to the 1970's, CRF's now... race prepped both kinds too.

IMHO, I do like the RFS bikes but they don't hold up as well as the Honda's. I've seen too many cast pistons crumble and output shafts sheer off to believe in KTM reliability. I think they have a great platform, but the QC just isn't there as it is in Japan.

Seems reasonable, I appreciate what you posted. Thanks. I guess one accepts one or the other limitation...

I agree with many that I would like to see a dualsport Honda 300cc to 500 cc at around 270lbs, a motorcycle that one can ride trail terrain on.

A flash in the pan high-performance disposable motorcycle that lasts like 5 minutes compared to something like a Honda. Or, get a Honda, Yamaha, or Suzuki and ride it hard every day for a decade or more, not excessive maintenance/ rebuilding, does the job well enough (unless one has some need to fulfill with that $10k investment for a few seconds faster). Does that performance margin really matter if one is not racing- myself and lots of folks I talk to know that a eg Honda etc riding with a KTM is not just left behind recreationally, very reasonable if one has sober consideration, self-confidence, ego control...

Most folks understand the score. Some, particularly KTM blowhard punks (not to be confused with fine citizens who ride excellent KTM motorcycles), just sound like they are compensating for something else missing in their life. This Honda blowhard just does not want to accept the illogic and bullshit of blowhard punks who do not want to allow others to have an opinion, preference, or enjoy their choice. WTF- like some religious fanaticism these KTM blowhards (again, not to be confused with fine KTM owners who post here, a couple of friends of mine, very good folks, reasonable, not bullies). Some asshole that blows $10k for some small ego satisfaction measured in a few faster seconds perhaps feels superior in his mind, but doe not realize how little he really matters to the world...

Looking at the XT225 thread just now, I do not see so much of the KTM blowhard punks (not to be confused with fine citizens who ride excellent KTM motorcycles) inserting themselves. Perhaps it is just an attack-Honda thing? There is a posting there of a guy stating that he likes riding steep ground and does it better up and down on his TW200, and it does it better than his 525EXC! ANd I did not notice these punks hanging around dissing Honda going after that...


If someone wants to ride a TW200 across the northern tier or around the world, or a scooter, KLR650, whatever their choice, and they like it and talk about it, great.

I agree with many that I would like to see a dualsport Honda 300cc to 500 cc at around 270lbs, a motorcycle that one can ride trail terrain on.

[Grreatdog]

Originally Posted by RED CAT

Xl500.

That one about made me made spit my Coke on the monitor. Who could ask for more than 30 hp wrapped in a 335 pound package featuring flexible forks, a screen door shock and wooden brakes. Too bad they dropped the 23" front wheel in '82. That was a truly unique feature.

[ADVNCW]

Originally Posted by NJ-Brett

I am odd, and do not want Honda to build a KTM type race bike, but I wish they built a good light mid sized street biased dual sport like the SL350 used to be.
A smooth 350 twin that makes enough power for real street use, a nice seat that would fit two adults, lower weight and seat height, and around 7 or 8 inches of suspension.
No, not a water cooled motocross looking bike, not a 500+ pound street bike with dual sport tires, just a general purpose long lasting practical mid size bike that is happy on the road or in the dirt, no 36 inch seat height, no plastic frames, crappy seats, 1/2 quart of oil, radiators hanging off the bike.

Yep, I know what you are saying. That rebuilt red Transalp on Flea Market appeals to what you say. I am tempted for that, but have to reorient to reality that it is 2013 and for what I want (CDR, WABDR) there are better choices.

A motorcycle to enjoy everyday does not have to have max HP and max suspension- just enough would do it. One can ride nearly anything on a decent motorcycle, while the elite race bikes do just a couple of things well... for a limited time!

My little dog 230L carries me everywhere, sometimes I do it better than the $$ well-respected rides, sometimes frustrating eg on the open highway for very far. But my Honda starts EVERY TIME, maintenence is not that much, repair is rare especially since trail riding several thousand miles even gnarly mountain terrain I have dropped the (easy!) little dog 230L now...twice If I saw in reality what the blowhards post, I would NEED to go get the $9k motorcycle that lasts 5 minutes...but I have a great time on a Honda, 7000 miles since May on all terrain, highway, traveling, dirt roads.

[Ned1]

^^ You are SUCH a troll