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Old 10-25-2012, 11:29 AM   #6106
RoninMoto
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Originally Posted by Mini Trail View Post
I finally got my new rockers and the intake is TIGHT. I expected to have to adjust the valves but I don't exactly know where to start. Is there a way to estimate the shims particularly when they are tight? They aren't cheap.
What you will need:
-A set of calipers for measuring the shim you remove.
-a shim kit About the same price as 1 hour of shop time at your local KTM shop?
-strong magnet (easiest way to remove the shims, like you use when you drop a socket into a motor and have to fish it out)
-Feeler gauge.

1. Measure the clearance and note the one(s) that is/are tight.
2. Use the feeler gauge to see about how far out they are.
3. Pull the cam out and so your rockers are loose. Its a good Idea to ziptie the timing chain to the cam gear so you don't loose the place.
4. Using the magnet, remove the shim.
5. Measure it with the calipers and find replace with the shim you need.
6. Re-install the cam and check your valve clearance again to see if you have correct clearance.

Last time we did the valves shims on my 08 we installed them loose.. around .11 mm. They are more noisy when they are loose but seem to tighten over time. I don't want to have to do valve shims in Siberia next summer.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:33 AM   #6107
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Originally Posted by The Letter J View Post
When you say "TIGHT" do you mean there is NO clearance? If so, are any of the shims for any of the other valves thinner? If so you could swap them around just to get a measurement. I just went down to my local Harley Davidson dealer (some harley's use the same 10mm shims) and traded shims for what I needed at no charge. I only needed 1 new shim to get all 4 valves in spec. If they are at .000" I would just start with a shim that is at least .006 thinner and go from there.
+1, at my local HD dealer, the shims are only a couple bucks. I wouldn't waste money on a shim kit, chances are you'll never use 3/4 of the shims in there and you'll probably end up having to go buy a shim or 2 because there's not enough of a particular size in the kit.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:01 PM   #6108
Mini Trail
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If it isn't obvious I am new to the shims. I had to replace both rockers. The intake (new item number) is so tight I had to compress the valves a touch to push the rod through.

They seem to have some relief machined into the bottom where they go over the valve stem. I thought it might be measured from inside that relief (where my calipers or micrometer won't fit) but it sounds like they are measured at the flats.

How many brands use the same shims? I'll buy that hotcams set but if there was an S&S kit for Harleys for half the price well...
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:03 PM   #6109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
+1, at my local HD dealer, the shims are only a couple bucks. I wouldn't waste money on a shim kit, chances are you'll never use 3/4 of the shims in there and you'll probably end up having to go buy a shim or 2 because there's not enough of a particular size in the kit.
+1 on not needing the kit. Just buy them individually from a shop. They're cheap, and you'll only need a few for the life of the bike...
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:14 PM   #6110
RoninMoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Trail View Post
If it isn't obvious I am new to the shims. I had to replace both rockers. The intake (new item number) is so tight I had to compress the valves a touch to push the rod through.

They seem to have some relief machined into the bottom where they go over the valve stem. I thought it might be measured from inside that relief (where my calipers or micrometer won't fit) but it sounds like they are measured at the flats.

How many brands use the same shims? I'll buy that hotcams set but if there was an S&S kit for Harleys for half the price well...
-1 for not needing the kit. He is starting out new. He will have to try shims until one works.

My opinion: Get a kit. Put a small shim in and see how tight it is. Try till you get within speck.
When you are checking a motor during its periodic mantainance, you have the advantage of KNOWING which shim to use. There really is no way to measure short of putting a shim in and using a feeler gauge. So unless you live next door to a shop or they will give you a hand full of shims to try, I suggest getting the kit. Especially if you live in the boonies like many of us do and don't have a close local shop.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:51 PM   #6111
Roadracer_Al
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Exactly - if there is any clearance at all -- tight or lose compared to spec -- it can be measured, and the correct shim ascertained in one shot.

If the clearance is zero, there is no way to determine the correct shim in one shot. You have to gain clearance with a small shim, then get the clearance in spec with a second shim.

Before you go buying shims... read the manual on the section about crank shaft position for checking the shim values: it is easy to try to measure the clearance in the wrong position and find zero clearance.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:53 PM   #6112
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Trail View Post
If it isn't obvious I am new to the shims. I had to replace both rockers. The intake (new item number) is so tight I had to compress the valves a touch to push the rod through.

They seem to have some relief machined into the bottom where they go over the valve stem. I thought it might be measured from inside that relief (where my calipers or micrometer won't fit) but it sounds like they are measured at the flats.

How many brands use the same shims? I'll buy that hotcams set but if there was an S&S kit for Harleys for half the price well...
Something seems odd, new rockers shouldn't effect your clearance that drastically. Are you 100% positive you are at TDC? Do the intake shims look pitted in the center? You measure the gap between the rocker and shim using a feeler gauge.

The reason HD dealers carry the shims is because they are used on the Rotax motored Buells. Obviously KTM uses them and I'm guessing some Aprilias use them also.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:16 PM   #6113
Uller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
The reason HD dealers carry the shims is because they are used on the Rotax motored Buells. Obviously KTM uses them and I'm guessing some Aprilias use them also.
The Harley Davidson V-Rod uses the same shims too.

My local HD dealer didn't have any in stock. Told me that their mechanics don't have them either. Then stated that the minimum order was for 5 shims of each size and finally, that he couldn't order them at all.

I am now the proud owner of a Hot-Cams Shim Kit.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #6114
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uller View Post
The Harley Davidson V-Rod uses the same shims too.

My local HD dealer didn't have any in stock. Told me that their mechanics don't have them either. Then stated that the minimum order was for 5 shims of each size and finally, that he couldn't order them at all.

I am now the proud owner of a Hot-Cams Shim Kit.
LOL, wonder what they charge the pirates for a valve adjustment when they don't even have shims to do the job. THIS is the reason I don't let dealers do the work.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:42 PM   #6115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uller View Post
The Harley Davidson V-Rod uses the same shims too.

My local HD dealer didn't have any in stock. Told me that their mechanics don't have them either. Then stated that the minimum order was for 5 shims of each size and finally, that he couldn't order them at all.

I am now the proud owner of a Hot-Cams Shim Kit.
Yea but they've got T-shirts stacked to the roof and HD branded polishing kits
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:41 PM   #6116
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Mini, Find the thinnest shim you have and try it. If you can get a measurment that way it's a one shot deal, if it's still too tight go .010 or .015 thinner than you thinnest- odds are you'll need one of those as the valves start to tighten. You put quite a few miles on your bike so plan to do the lash again. As an alternative, you CAN measure it another way, but it's probably beyond my ability to explain via this forum- I'll try:

You say the valve compresses some when tightened down. Measure the height (valve fully seated). You'll have to establish a datum surface, or use a mag base and test indicator. Then install the rocker and remeasure using the same datum. This will tell you how much interferance you have. Add the lash, and order that shim.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:14 PM   #6117
Mini Trail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzztail View Post
Mini, Find the thinnest shim you have and try it. If you can get a measurment that way it's a one shot deal, if it's still too tight go .010 or .015 thinner than you thinnest- odds are you'll need one of those as the valves start to tighten. You put quite a few miles on your bike so plan to do the lash again. As an alternative, you CAN measure it another way, but it's probably beyond my ability to explain via this forum- I'll try:

You say the valve compresses some when tightened down. Measure the height (valve fully seated). You'll have to establish a datum surface, or use a mag base and test indicator. Then install the rocker and remeasure using the same datum. This will tell you how much interferance you have. Add the lash, and order that shim.
Believe it or not that is exactly how you set the cam timing on a 911. I could just draw up a mount to hold a dial indicator and get the guys in the machine shop to cut one out of delrin or aluminum except they don't like me and it would be 10x the trouble of just ordering that kit.

I didn't measure them but I assumed by the etching that both of the intakes (bottom) are the same and both of the exhausts (top) are the same. I thought the numbers might align with the part descriptions.



SHIM D=10/2,00 | 03 (As required)

SHIM D=10/2,05 | 03 (As required)

I have the crank locked at TDC with the tool (that I made from a bolt) but maybe I should check the cam again. I reset the tensioner since I checked the timing.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:27 PM   #6118
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Pretty much that same as doing a 911, yep.

When/If I have to get that deep in this engine (head off) I'll degree the cams. I have been known to do shit like that just because nobody else does. Built some offset pins for something here not too long ago that I was told you could not adjust the cam timing on. Challange accepted
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:29 PM   #6119
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New 690 owner here. I have a 2012. I want to remove the stock graphics but I can't seem to get anything to work. Heat, thinner, brake cleaner... I am not sure how KTM put those things on there but I can't them off. I have searched the thread but no luck. Any help would be appreciated.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:11 PM   #6120
RoninMoto
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Originally Posted by ghostman View Post
New 690 owner here. I have a 2012. I want to remove the stock graphics but I can't seem to get anything to work. Heat, thinner, brake cleaner... I am not sure how KTM put those things on there but I can't them off. I have searched the thread but no luck. Any help would be appreciated.
I think I just pulled the 2010 graphics off. there was some residue left... GooGone?
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RTW Ride Report --> http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=781893
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