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Old 11-02-2012, 08:13 PM   #31
ka5ysy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zataomm View Post
the fact that you can find idiots on any brand of motorcycle proves nothing.

amen !
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:02 AM   #32
hillbillypolack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josephvman View Post
You should have asked him why Ducati can't make a fuel tank that will last more than a couple of years.
ZING!

Or a sportbike engine that isn't failing main bearings. Or chrome flaking off rockers. Or popping voltage regulators. You know, like these are all 'scientifically designed and new technology'.

Then again, BMW has their fair share of issues, as do any OEM. It's been posted that you need to do your research before tolerating a dealer like the OP has. Know what you're getting into, and know the possible mods and upgrades which may be needed.

On the riders themselves, to be honest we all have to admit there's a weird and interesting divisiveness between US/European/sportbike/cruiser crowds. What I think we all agree upon is the uneducated, blindly stereotypical nature of some riders. Squids are just as much a pain in the ass with an open I4 header as Harley riding pirates sometimes. BMW riders and their astronaut / conspicuity suits populating Starbuck$. Dual sport guys looking to jump a fence when they get a chance. Chopped cafe bikes and the hipster 50s groove. Nothing wrong with the 'look' of any of them but some also draw unnecessary attention because of their actions. Comes back to common consideration for everyone.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:16 AM   #33
hillbillypolack
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Originally Posted by Taelan28 View Post
What happens? Does the plastic crack? Does it rust inside? Serious question.
The basic problem (yes, it is a serious problem) is that Ducati and a few other manufacturers decided that a plastic paintable fuel tank would be a good idea. The polymer which was chosen by the supplier (Acerbis) is PA6, and is 'raw' on the inside meaning that there is no internal coating. In nearly every sales market, liquid gasoline fuels have had ethanol as part of their content for over 15 years. The problem with the PA6 as a fuel tank material is that ethanol absorbs humidity (water) which is then heavier than gasoline and drops to the bottom of the tank (does not evaporate out as it would if it were on top). The water is then ABSORBED into the PA6 and the tank proceeds to expand.

Keep in mind that Ducati, and its supplier Acerbis had been making gas tanks for every global market and should have been fully knowledgable about gasoline content in these respective markets. Due diligence and proper certification would have brought the concern to light during any general R&D process.

The tank deformation affected 50,000 US Ducati motorcycles including Sport Classics, 848s, the entire S2R and S4R Monster line, Streetfighters, to name an incomplete list. The tanks could leak out the back near the fuel pump assembly onto the top of the engine. The tanks could also deform and raise the tank off the frame which was designed to support the tank. There was never an NHTSA recall formally issued despite this being a fuel related (and safety) concern.

Ducati chose to indirectly deal with the problem, relying on word of mouth and internet 'awareness'. The affected tanks were replaced through a dealer reviewing them, a local rep approving the replacement and generally all being quiet. The replacements were also manufactured of PA6, the same material as the deforming tanks. Some customers have had to get their tanks replaced 2 or 3 times.

There was a formal lawsuit brought against Ducati NA, where the settlement was to replace tanks if deemed necessary, as well as modifications to the bike. These included limiting steering angle (increasing steering stops), adding a bracket to the tank itself (which would be visible), supplying an alternate seat (shorter if the tank was growing lengthwise) etc. In other words, Ducati was attending to the situation by changing everything BUT the gas tank and the faulty polymer.

Many owners of these Ducatis have been extremely soured by the situation. Even enthusiasts and long time Duc owners ask WTF.

To be fair, KTM, Triumph and Harley Davidson all had similar problems due to PA6 paintable fuel tanksmade by Acerbis (the supplier for all of these). I believe at this point, Acerbis is no longer.

So, how's that for 'European engineering prowess'?
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hillbillypolack screwed with this post 11-03-2012 at 07:22 AM
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:35 AM   #34
kraven
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Quote:
So, how's that for 'European engineering prowess'?
About par for the course.

Every eurobike enthusiast has a litany of excuses or sidestepping "hey, is that Sasquatch?" responses to these problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i11hLPi_ky0
The general population of motorcyclists find this kind of failing intolerable at the price point and difficulty often presented in parts sourcing.

But if you pick a machine that's built by a reputable company, you bear accusation of having a "soulless" machine.

Quote:
Or a sportbike engine that isn't failing main bearings. Or chrome flaking off rockers. Or popping voltage regulators. You know, like these are all 'scientifically designed and new technology'.
"but, but, but... tradition... blahblahblah..."

Meanwhile Honda and Kawi and Suzuki and Yamaha have continue to hang in there and build legendary machines without weird tech and problems. Back in the early 90's when I got into wsbk and owned a Ducati 900 (that I loved like a great pair of c-cups), it was a real head scratcher that Kawasaki could pwn Ducati's proprietary technology with simpler and more efficient to produce machines. Some things never change. I know it's a Ford vs Ferrari thing. But, I have little patience for excuses manufacturers give about recurring problems across decades and various models.
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kraven screwed with this post 11-03-2012 at 07:41 AM
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:08 AM   #35
hillbillypolack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraven View Post
About par for the course.

Every eurobike enthusiast has a litany of excuses or sidestepping "hey, is that Sasquatch?" responses to these problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i11hLPi_ky0
The general population of motorcyclists find this kind of failing intolerable at the price point and difficulty often presented in parts sourcing.

But if you pick a machine that's built by a reputable company, you bear accusation of having a "soulless" machine.



"but, but, but... tradition... blahblahblah..."
I agree wholeheartedly. Ducati's been especially guilty of this in recent years. Offer a V twin that doesn't have adequate fueling below 4000 rpm? Are you serious, Ducati? On a 20k bike? Have ballooning tanks from a bad material spec then disown your involvement? It's not like you can just run out and get a replacement Al or metal tank from Tucker Rocky. The Panigale from what I see has a few teething pains as well. But as you noted, 'it's Italian! It's the quirks you put up with for exclusivity!'

All OEMS have issues, I'm just picking on Ducatis as I'm more familiar with them.
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Old 11-03-2012, 05:40 PM   #36
Taelan28 OP
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WTF I thought that was just a plastic shell. At least that explains why my gas tank was rusty and needed a new carburator. A new tank on my POS bike was $350 and I was like HELL NO! just change the carburator and give me a filter. A new tank on a Ducati I dont even want to know.

Is that what fuel stabilizer is for? To prevent water from collecting on the bottom of the tank?

Since the motorcycling market seems to be hardcore and enthusiast driven I would assume that flawed designs and inefficiencies would be scrubbed from the market quickly thus giving me a good buy no matter what. Sure Monsters are still selling so they must not be complete pos machines, but hearing something like this about the gas tank is pretty pathetic. After over a century of combustion engine technology should it be difficult to make a no compromising engine that doesn't break down and have minimal maintenance?

American born Korean and actual Koreans are worlds apart. You cant even compare.
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