ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-04-2012, 12:40 AM   #136
TheWall
0 miles and counting
 
TheWall's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cold, frozen north
Oddometer: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet View Post
Pussy.....
Hey, just cuz you dropped yours...
TheWall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 06:55 AM   #137
B.Curvin
Feral Chia tamer
 
B.Curvin's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Left of the dial. Canton, NC
Oddometer: 2,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlySniper View Post
When you told me to use the front brake in a turn, in the dirt, I thought you were nuts.... till I tried it.....



It's really fun in the dirt when you start sliding the front.



Can you tell it was slow in the shop yesterday.





__________________
Mutt'n the custard.

Porsche Audi VW
B.Curvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 08:43 PM   #138
bungie4
Frostback
 
bungie4's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Sudbury Ontario
Oddometer: 444
Good article, thanks for sharing. See you for Phase 2 on June 23.
__________________
-Steve

2013 FJR1300, 2004 FJR1300, 2013 CRF250L
I have a job, I explore, I follow every little whiff.
On/Offroad help when you need it - http://www.assistancelist.com
bungie4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 06:06 AM   #139
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
Good article, thanks for sharing. See you for Phase 2 on June 23.
Looking forward to it Steve! How has your riding changed since Taking Level I?
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 01:12 PM   #140
bungie4
Frostback
 
bungie4's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Sudbury Ontario
Oddometer: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
Looking forward to it Steve! How has your riding changed since Taking Level I?
More confident and I hope safer. More telling is that others say my riding has improved noticeably. I still think I need WAY more practice on the FJR though. That bike is so difficult to ride smooth with the snatchy transitions in the F.I. There are fixes though (a little clutch slip does wonders).

I did take my little CBR250R up to the local college parking lot and practice the throttle/breaking exercise. Much easier to do at a slow pace on that bike than the FJR. I ended up putting a zip tie around the lower fork leg to act as a tell-tale. Within about an hour I could do lap after lap of the course (long oval) without the zip tie moving more than an inch from the sagged out position. Pretty good!

Anyway, since the course I went down to SE Ohio (it sucks there, long, straight roads, boring! :) and to North Carolina for the Eastern Owners Meet. I got to bust on Clocklaw for trailering his bike there. Payback is SO sweet.

Anyway, pick from NC. Woohoo!
__________________
-Steve

2013 FJR1300, 2004 FJR1300, 2013 CRF250L
I have a job, I explore, I follow every little whiff.
On/Offroad help when you need it - http://www.assistancelist.com
bungie4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 04:06 PM   #141
wmfleet2
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: york,pa
Oddometer: 811
yes

[QUOTE=OldPete;19046984]TY, i like Nick and that was a good read.

Nick wrote The Pace in 1993 and it was/is a must read too.

1+ great read,,i have passed it around
wmfleet2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 10:55 PM   #142
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
More confident and I hope safer. More telling is that others say my riding has improved noticeably. I still think I need WAY more practice on the FJR though. That bike is so difficult to ride smooth with the snatchy transitions in the F.I. There are fixes though (a little clutch slip does wonders).

I did take my little CBR250R up to the local college parking lot and practice the throttle/breaking exercise. Much easier to do at a slow pace on that bike than the FJR. I ended up putting a zip tie around the lower fork leg to act as a tell-tale. Within about an hour I could do lap after lap of the course (long oval) without the zip tie moving more than an inch from the sagged out position. Pretty good!

Anyway, since the course I went down to SE Ohio (it sucks there, long, straight roads, boring! :) and to North Carolina for the Eastern Owners Meet. I got to bust on Clocklaw for trailering his bike there. Payback is SO sweet.
Your out there practising?
Check out the gymkhana thread. No, seriously. It's a mad thing, not the thread, gymkhana.
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 12:14 AM   #143
atomicalex
silly aluminum boxes
 
atomicalex's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Detroit & Düsseldorf
Oddometer: 2,050
...putts off to read the Gymkhana thread....
__________________
Katherine, in words - F650GSa - CBR250R (sold) - Super Sherpa - Nine Days in the Alps
atomicalex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 04:26 AM   #144
bungie4
Frostback
 
bungie4's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Sudbury Ontario
Oddometer: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet View Post
Your out there practising?
Check out the gymkhana thread. No, seriously. It's a mad thing, not the thread, gymkhana.
I've had more than a passing interest in gymkhana for a while now. I'm so glad to see a moto-sport that anybody can take part in without the high dollar investment.

Little story, a few years ago I was on a charity ride (don't do those anymore) where I was stuck in a parade of chrome turtles in parking lot. Each and everyone of them were duck paddling along. Well we passed directly in front of 4 motor cops. I didn't realize it at the time but I was the only one who rode past, and made a Uturn into a parking spot at sub walking speeds - with my feet on the pegs the whole time.

2 of the cops come over to look at my bike and mentioned I was the only one who did it properly. Woo. Anyway after the ride the cop who supervisors all the training came back over to me and offered me to follow him back to the station and take a stab at there training course.

"Good PR this" I'm thinkiing

Well, one look at the course had me thinking this is a bad idea, especially on the FJR. Long story short I managed to do the whole course without putting a foot down. But I did clip one cone with my pannier. Still, f'n eh!

I've been riding for 30+ years. You can always learn new skills and that helps keep the pursuit fresh.
__________________
-Steve

2013 FJR1300, 2004 FJR1300, 2013 CRF250L
I have a job, I explore, I follow every little whiff.
On/Offroad help when you need it - http://www.assistancelist.com
bungie4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 05:37 AM   #145
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
I did take my little CBR250R up to the local college parking lot and practice the throttle/breaking exercise. Much easier to do at a slow pace on that bike than the FJR. I ended up putting a zip tie around the lower fork leg to act as a tell-tale. Within about an hour I could do lap after lap of the course (long oval) without the zip tie moving more than an inch from the sagged out position. Pretty good!
I'm confused what's the point of keeping your suspension up in the travel?

Under hard braking the forks on my SM and adventure use about 8" (stock springs) and my SMR uses about 6"

And once I get them into the stroke some I use trail braking to keep them there while the cornering forces take over to hold them down for the rest of the turn. Although they both do extend some as the braking load comes off of them.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 09:53 AM   #146
bungie4
Frostback
 
bungie4's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Sudbury Ontario
Oddometer: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
I'm confused what's the point of keeping your suspension up in the travel?

Under hard braking the forks on my SM and adventure use about 8" (stock springs) and my SMR uses about 6"

And once I get them into the stroke some I use trail braking to keep them there while the cornering forces take over to hold them down for the rest of the turn. Although they both do extend some as the braking load comes off of them.
It's an exercise in being smooth on the throttle and the brake SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Which begs the question why?

Your suspension works best at its mid point. But entering a turn hard on the brakes transfers all the weight up front, which changes your steering geometry (making it quicker) as you release the brakes your front suspension extends, slowing down the geometry. As you roll on the throttle exiting the corner, your suspension, front and rear, extends still further, further slowing down the geometry.

All this fork movement really unsettles the bike. and depending on the situation, leaves the suspension unable to cope properly with road irregularities or corrections.

By using the brakes AND throttle at the same time, it's possible to keep the suspension in the sweet sport of suspension travel greatly stabilizing the bike all through out a turn.

Side benefit is the potentially increased ground clearance because your suspension isn't effectively collapsed when you need it the most.
__________________
-Steve

2013 FJR1300, 2004 FJR1300, 2013 CRF250L
I have a job, I explore, I follow every little whiff.
On/Offroad help when you need it - http://www.assistancelist.com
bungie4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 10:34 AM   #147
Mambo Dave
Backyard Adventurer
 
Mambo Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Oddometer: 4,693
I have trail braked on the street when entering corners way, way too fast - so for me it's always been an emergency backup plan. In the instances I've done it I've never lost a bike or crashed as it was looking like I might up until I kept braking.

But to me that is relying on traction (or traction coefficients) that many times just aren't there when riding in states like this one where, with no state inspection, vehicles of all ages, that leak all kinds of fluids, use the same roads as I do.

Braking into or through a turn can be done, yes, but it sure isn't something to rely upon on many public roads. And if you're wondering, this isn't coming from someone who rides like a grandpa on the streets... the back roads of Pennsylvania used to be my own private course for my ZX-7R, but trail braking was just an emergency parachute.

Great to practice for track days or for emergencies, but there will be more wrecked street bikes out there if riders start entering corners with more speed and expect that level of traction to be linear like it is on most tracks.
Mambo Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 10:36 AM   #148
TheWall
0 miles and counting
 
TheWall's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cold, frozen north
Oddometer: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
Your suspension works best at its mid point. But entering a turn hard on the brakes transfers all the weight up front, which changes your steering geometry (making it quicker) as you release the brakes your front suspension extends, slowing down the geometry. As you roll on the throttle exiting the corner, your suspension, front and rear, extends still further, further slowing down the geometry.
Okay, I understand and agree with that, with the possible exception that rolling on the throttle extends your rear suspension. I understand what was said about tightening the chain pulls the rear suspension upwards, but you've also got weight shift to the rear during acceleration, which compresses the rear suspension. However, which force is the greatest (and therefore, which direction the suspension adjusts) is not settled in my mind. Please note, I'm not saying you're wrong -- I'm just saying I can see an argument either way, so I'd like to test it and find out for myself. I think I'll need to rig up a camera and do some testing next spring. I'm weird like that

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
All this fork movement really unsettles the bike. and depending on the situation, leaves the suspension unable to cope properly with road irregularities or corrections.
I can see how having the suspension extending and compressing throughout the maneuver can make it difficult to control the bike precisely. I can also see how a skilled rider could use the shortened steering geometry at the turn entry to make a tighter turn than would be possible otherwise. In fact, that's one of the tricks of the trade that the really good riders (not me ...yet) use over in that other thread to make the really tight turns in a GP8, for example. But it takes a while to master that skill, and lots of people drop their bikes during the mastery process, so it's probably not a great technique to be experimenting with in traffic
TheWall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 10:45 AM   #149
B.Curvin
Feral Chia tamer
 
B.Curvin's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Left of the dial. Canton, NC
Oddometer: 2,708
I ride 400 to 500 miles a week. I trail brake (front) into the vast majority of corners I negotiate, every single day. I've only tucked the front on pavement once in my life...........in a race.......on a racetrack.

I've been riding for 35 years.



Oops.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
I have trail braked on the street when entering corners way, way too fast - so for me it's always been an emergency backup plan. In the instances I've done it I've never lost a bike or crashed as it was looking like I might up until I kept braking.

But to me that is relying on traction (or traction coefficients) that many times just aren't there when riding in states like this one where, with no state inspection, vehicles of all ages, that leak all kinds of fluids, use the same roads as I do.

Braking into or through a turn can be done, yes, but it sure isn't something to rely upon on many public roads. And if you're wondering, this isn't coming from someone who rides like a grandpa on the streets... the back roads of Pennsylvania used to be my own private course for my ZX-7R, but trail braking was just an emergency parachute.

Great to practice for track days or for emergencies, but there will be more wrecked street bikes out there if riders start entering corners with more speed and expect that level of traction to be linear like it is on most tracks.
__________________
Mutt'n the custard.

Porsche Audi VW
B.Curvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 11:06 AM   #150
Mambo Dave
Backyard Adventurer
 
Mambo Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Oddometer: 4,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
I ride 400 to 500 miles a week. I trail brake (front) into the vast majority of corners I negotiate, every single day. I've only tucked the front on pavement once in my life...........in a race.......on a racetrack.

I've been riding for 35 years.


And I respect that, but I also don't understand how it can be relied upon in states like Ohio and Florida where old oil/coolant/cargo leaking vehicles are too common (or in Pennsylvania where chip seal road corners accumulate gravel), and traction in corners too unpredictable. Could I get away with it for a year? Probably. Year after year? Not worth the price to bet on.

I, too, was riding 400 to 500 miles a week there for over a year and a half... every week. On those roads I could get away with more in all types of temps and conditions as I knew them really well, and was generally up on new changes to the surfaces.

But for simple sport riding where we didn't take the same routes, ever, up in PA... relying on trail braking will catch you within the year on roads you don't know. You simply will not have that 3% or 10% of traction left in the corner on hot and bubbly tar roads, or on loose aggregate, or on left-over traction laid down on previously icy roads.

So, again, this is back to the predictable-ness of tracks, and courses we take every day (or joy ride on during weekends) are far more like race tracks than exploratory sport riding can expect.
Mambo Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014