Braking by Nick Ienatsch

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by bungie4

It's an exercise in being smooth on the throttle and the brake SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Which begs the question why?

Your suspension works best at its mid point. But entering a turn hard on the brakes transfers all the weight up front, which changes your steering geometry (making it quicker) as you release the brakes your front suspension extends, slowing down the geometry. As you roll on the throttle exiting the corner, your suspension, front and rear, extends still further, further slowing down the geometry.

All this fork movement really unsettles the bike. and depending on the situation, leaves the suspension unable to cope properly with road irregularities or corrections.

The problem with fork movement isn't that it moves it's when it "pogo's" you want to get your forks compressed under braking which helps the bike turn in and through turn in so you don't suddenly unweight the front coming off the brakes and have them smoothly extend as you get on the gas and come out of the corner. The goal is have them go down one time and come up one time smoothly each corner, and not go up down up down etc

By using the brakes AND throttle at the same time, it's possible to keep the suspension in the sweet sport of suspension travel greatly stabilizing the bike all through out a turn.

That I agree with but it has nothing to do with only using 1" of travel past sag.

Side benefit is the potentially increased ground clearance because your suspension isn't effectively collapsed when you need it the most.

Well, nothing but spring rate determines where you end up in your travel for a steady state cornering load. To use less travel you either get stiffer springs or you don't brake / turn as hard.

If I tried to ride around only using 1" of travel I'd be _very_ slow.

Rossi hard on the brakes


Jorge mid-corner


Casey Stoner accelerating out of a corner (gives you a good idea of total travel available to the rider



So could you explain why you where trying to use such a small amount of travel? Or what the actual drill is you where doing?

Also to the guy who wasn't sure about the suspension extending under acceleration, look at the distance between the bottom of the tire back tire and the bottom of the bellypan between the mid-corner and the corner exit shot. The bike leaving the corner is doing a wheelie so it has 100% load transfer to the back wheel and the suspension is almost if not fully topped out.

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by Mambo Dave

And I respect that, but I also don't understand how it can be relied upon in states like Ohio and Florida where old oil/coolant/cargo leaking vehicles are too common (or in Pennsylvania where chip seal road corners accumulate gravel), and traction in corners too unpredictable. Could I get away with it for a year? Probably. Year after year? Not worth the price to bet on.

Trail braking and being near the limits of tire adhesion are 2 different things, and sliding the front doesn't mean you're crashing.

[Wraith Rider]

Originally Posted by crofrog

Trail braking and being near the limits of tire adhesion are 2 different things

What brings the conclusion that trail braking on public roads is just for fun, because if you have left a reasonable amount of traction you don't need to brake at all.

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

What brings the conclusion that trail braking on public roads is just for fun, because if you have left a reasonable amount of traction you don't need to brake at all.

Because you can use the trail braking to get you to the line you want to be on and be no where near the limits of adhesion or to use less lean angle, or make the ride really smooth.

If you frequently ride around on public roads with the bike pushing and sliding it's a matter of time until you get caught out.

[TheWall]

Originally Posted by crofrog

Also to the guy who wasn't sure about the suspension extending under acceleration, look at the distance between the bottom of the tire back tire and the bottom of the bellypan between the mid-corner and the corner exit shot. The bike leaving the corner is doing a wheelie so it has 100% load transfer to the back wheel and the suspension is almost if not fully topped out.

Great analysis -- thanks for posting that! And yeah, the Ducati certainly looks like the rear suspension has extended compared to the Yamaha in the second photo. Interesting...

[Andrew011]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

What brings the conclusion that trail braking on public roads is just for fun, because if you have left a reasonable amount of traction you don't need to brake at all.

On public roads there is an element of possible surprise in the corner (wherever you can't see the road far enough ahead). I find it easier to react in these situations if trail braking, it is easier for me to tighten the turn if needed, to instantly slow down if needed, or to quickly change direction, because the front is partially loaded and the grip is already there.

I don't think of trail braking as "an invitation" or "green light" for faster entries in the corners. For me it is like a preemptive measure of giving some grip to the front, until I see the clear exit and roll on the throttle.

[B.Curvin]

Originally Posted by crofrog

Because you can use the trail braking to get you to the line you want to be on and be no where near the limits of adhesion or to use less lean angle, or make the ride really smooth.

If you frequently ride around on public roads with the bike pushing and sliding it's a matter of time until you get caught out.

Originally Posted by Andrew011

On public roads there is an element of possible surprise in the corner (wherever you can't see the road far enough ahead). I find it easier to react in these situations if trail braking, it is easier for me to tighten the turn if needed, to instantly slow down if needed, or to quickly change direction, because the front is partially loaded and the grip is already there.

I don't think of trail braking as "an invitation" or "green light" for faster entries in the corners. For me it is like a preemptive measure of giving some grip to the front, until I see the clear exit and roll on the throttle.

and

[Harvey Krumpet]

Originally Posted by Andrew011

On public roads there is an element of possible surprise in the corner (wherever you can't see the road far enough ahead). I find it easier to react in these situations if trail braking, it is easier for me to tighten the turn if needed, to instantly slow down if needed, or to quickly change direction, because the front is partially loaded and the grip is already there.

I don't think of trail braking as "an invitation" or "green light" for faster entries in the corners. For me it is like a preemptive measure of giving some grip to the front, until I see the clear exit and roll on the throttle.

This for me. ^^^ We have a lot of twisty roads & constantly changing surfaces so I often find myself trail braking into corners so I have control of the bikes attitude until I can see my apex and clear exit, it also allows me to instantly tighten or widen my turn & should I have to avoid an oncoming vehicle on my side of the road, which is common, I can do so quickly & smoothly by gently increasing my braking or accelerating by releasing the brakes as I look for an "exit".
The trail braking is very subtle, I have never had an issue with a bad road surface, gravel etc despite hitting plenty of it but I have had the time to react correctly and not unsettle the bike.

[bungie4]

I'll say it again. It's a practice exercise. I never suggested you should only ever use only 1" of suspension travel. In fact, I explicitly said the sweet spot was mid-travel.

If you learn to use both TOGETHER properly, you eliminate any chance for 'pogoing'. Do it improperly and you'll be worse off.

I'm done.

[TheWall]

Originally Posted by bungie4

It's a practice exercise. I never suggested you should only ever use only 1" of suspension travel.

As an exercise to see how smoothly you are applying throttle and brake, I take it? Makes sense to me Might be fun to practice this in the parking lot with tennis ball "cones" to help break the habit of grabbing at brakes, clutch or throttle.

[Wraith Rider]

Originally Posted by Andrew011

On public roads there is an element of possible surprise in the corner (wherever you can't see the road far enough ahead).

Basic rule: Never outdrive your sight distance. There shouldn't be an occasion "where you can't see the road far enough ahead".

Originally Posted by crofrog

Because you can use the trail braking to get you to the line you want to be on and be no where near the limits of adhesion or to use less lean angle, or make the ride really smooth.

As I said, it's done just for fun. Like hanging off. Nothing wrong about that.

[bungie4]

Originally Posted by B.Curvin

I ride 400 to 500 miles a week. I trail brake (front) into the vast majority of corners I negotiate, every single day. I've only tucked the front on pavement once in my life...........in a race.......on a racetrack.

I've been riding for 35 years.

Funny, sure looks like the bike is under power (rear suspension extended), and unless you one finger break, I can't see any fingers in the front brake. That pic doesn't show a rider going down because of trail braking, that pic shows a rider going down because they overpowered the front with the 'troddle'.

[Barry]

Originally Posted by bungie4

Funny, sure looks like the bike is under power (rear suspension extended), and unless you one finger break, I can't see any fingers in the front brake. That pic doesn't show a rider going down because of trail braking, that pic shows a rider going down because they overpowered the front with the 'troddle'.

Dude... seriously, you should stop posting now. The pic above is not a crash pic, it is a pic of the guy powering out of a turn. Your arguments on braking, when to brake, and suspension travel make no sense. Just stop.

Barry

[Andrew011]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

Basic rule: Never outdrive your sight distance.

Ofcourse, It goes without saying.

More than once I was surprised by an oncoming car stepping in my lane in a corner even though my speed was low enough for me to stop before sight distance. This is what I meant by "where you can't see the road far enough ahead". Harvey Krumpet explained better.

[dbuzz]

Originally Posted by crofrog

Rossi hard on the brakes



.

OMG he has all four fingers on that brake surely that's a fail