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Old 11-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #70771
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I just want my stock carb sorted, I am not really trying to do anything besides get rid of the bogging down, backfiring, and poor mileage.
Has the engine always exhibited these symptoms?

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #70772
Skidmarkart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
Has the engine always exhibited these symptoms?
Somewhat - the bike is fairly new to me. It wasn't running 100% when I got it, but it was running much better than it is now. In the past couple of weeks, it has gone downhill. There's more low-end bog (taking off from idle), and there is more popping when the throttle is released. Seems to run great with the choke on.

I got it about 4 weeks ago a 2005 with 800 miles... So, it has done a fair bit of sitting. The guy who had it before me got it as a present from his wife (cool wife right?), and put a total of 100 miles on it in the last year. I did that in the first day.

I don't know if the change in weather (it is much cooler here now) or simply riding a bike that hasn't been ridden that has loosened thing up a bit.

It is bone stock, never been off road, never had any service (to my knowledge) besides oil changes. I did one of those as soon as I got it, and it had very clean oil and a newer filter on it (someone had obviously done an oil change).

I have fiddled with the external adjustment screw, but I can't seem to find a happy spot.

Also, I have rotten mileage from what folks here seem to get. Maybe 30mpg?

Thanks for any info...
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:13 PM   #70773
Mongle
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You guys crack me up with your dyno charts. Always arguing over the best CO or 02 numbers. Those numbers are to "help" tune an engine. They are not the tell all when it comes to a properly tuned engine. I can't argue much on the CO numbers because no one in the racing (late model dirt, NASCAR, Offshore boat to name a few) use it. They have no need for it when you have BSFC, #/HrHp, Fuel F #/HR and Air Fuel that can be compared to each other. I guess that is the difference between an 8K dollar motorcycle dyno and a 45K engine dyno.

What I can tell from experience is that numbers like CO and 02 are "relative" to each individual engine. You do what the engine LIKES. If it makes more HP with less fuel- then that is what the engine likes! Who cares what the actual air fuel number or CO number is. The end result should be what makes the engine run best. Not a specific air/fuel or CO number. It is good to have these numbers because it helps engine builders determine how changes to an engine changes fuel burn, hp, fuel efficiency etc. But, you cannot compare those numbers between two different motors with different setups. Also, anyone that is trying to get specific information doesn’t use a chart. They have what looks like a spread sheet that breaks all the info down to every 50 or 100 rpm engine change.

Like this: You can see how much info is gathered in a short sweep of 5100-5900 rpm. A chart/graph can not show all of this at once- it gets too cluttered.



Derek must be an engineer. He has one set idea and refuses to believe anyone else might be able to get as good or better results from a different idea. I have asked him 2 times for his BSFC and F #/HR numbers...He hasn't come up with anything yet...so once again I state that while he has a lot of useful information- He doesn't have it all.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:37 PM   #70774
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Somewhat - the bike is fairly new to me. It wasn't running 100% when I got it, but it was running much better than it is now. In the past couple of weeks, it has gone downhill. There's more low-end bog (taking off from idle), and there is more popping when the throttle is released. Seems to run great with the choke on.
If the engine runs better when the cold start enrichment circuit (BST40 carbs don't have chokes, regardless of what the lever says) is active, then the mixture is too lean.
Quote:
I got it about 4 weeks ago a 2005 with 800 miles... So, it has done a fair bit of sitting.
The fact that the symptom happens at small throttle openings and the fact that the bike has been sitting both point to a clogged pilot jet.
Quote:
I don't know if the change in weather (it is much cooler here now) or simply riding a bike that hasn't been ridden that has loosened thing up a bit.
That the symptom has worsened in colder temperatures also points to a lean mixture. I would start by installing a fresh pilot jet, setting the float height to 14.7mm and then adjusting the idle mixture & speed.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #70775
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Cool2 Carb wars!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
You guys crack me up with your dyno charts. Always arguing over the best CO or 02 numbers. Those numbers are to "help" tune an engine. They are not the tell all when it comes to a properly tuned engine. I can't argue much on the CO numbers because no one in the racing (late model dirt, NASCAR, Offshore boat to name a few) use it. They have no need for it when you have BSFC, #/HrHp, Fuel F #/HR and Air Fuel that can be compared to each other. I guess that is the difference between an 8K dollar motorcycle dyno and a 45K engine dyno.

What I can tell from experience is that numbers like CO and 02 are "relative" to each individual engine. You do what the engine LIKES. If it makes more HP with less fuel- then that is what the engine likes! Who cares what the actual air fuel number or CO number is. The end result should be what makes the engine run best. Not a specific air/fuel or CO number. It is good to have these numbers because it helps engine builders determine how changes to an engine changes fuel burn, hp, fuel efficiency etc. But, you cannot compare those numbers between two different motors with different setups. Also, anyone that is trying to get specific information doesn’t use a chart. They have what looks like a spread sheet that breaks all the info down to every 50 or 100 rpm engine change.

Like this: You can see how much info is gathered in a short sweep of 5100-5900 rpm. A chart/graph can not show all of this at once- it gets too cluttered.



Derek must be an engineer. He has one set idea and refuses to believe anyone else might be able to get as good or better results from a different idea. I have asked him 2 times for his BSFC and F #/HR numbers...He hasn't come up with anything yet...so once again I state that while he has a lot of useful information- He doesn't have it all.
Thanks Mongle,
Nice to have you speak up with your experience.

My experience is working with engineers, and I have learned that this rule is all too true.

Rule of engineering #1:

If it was not taught in the books at school
if it has not already been done
if it isn't my idea


It isn't possible


As you so well stated, when the engine is "happy" it is right.
And every engine is different, even if brand new and exactly the same.
And every dyno and every dyno operator will get different results from the same engine.

As Mongle said, dyno testing only helps, it is not the answer to all problems.
It is a tool to be used with knowledge and experience.

Skidmarkart - sounds like your engine problem is just a carb that needs a complete cleaning by someone who knows what they are doing.
Could be you if you can read and follow directions.
Old gas has probably gummed things up and needs to be cleaned out.
Pilot jet is the common culprit I believe and while some have had success just cleaning it, most have found better results by replacing it.

Installing a jet kit will probably NOT solve the problem.

You could pull the carb and send it to Derek...

I have not found a competent mechanic at any mc shop so I do my own work.
I am not a mechanic either but I can read and follow directions.

BTW, the best tuner I have known tuned by ear.
Yes, he had his own dyno too.
He tested air pressure, temperature and humidity before every run.
He kept a detailed notebook of every condition of every run.
He is an artist. Most tuners are technicians at best.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:46 PM   #70776
Skidmarkart
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Derek,

Thanks so much. I'll start there.



Meanwhile Carb Wars...

This is the Nick Winters show and I do the entertaining, thank you
Lets go out with something really hot for these folks
The big hit out of '77


Aww..Carb Wars, Nothing But Carb Wars
Give Me those Carb Wars
Don't let them end


Oh Carb Wars
If they should bar wars
Please let these Carb Wars stay


And hey!
How bout that nutty Carb Wars bar
Can you forget all the creatures in there


And Hey!
Darth Vader in that black and evil mask
Did he scare you as much as he scared me
Yeow!


Carb Wars those here in Bar wars
My 7th Winter up here!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53DQgbj2mIc

Skidmarkart screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 03:47 PM Reason: A link would make this AWESOME. Okay, maybe not. But still... better than it was?!?
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:02 PM   #70777
Mongle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I don't know if the change in weather (it is much cooler here now) or simply riding a bike that hasn't been ridden that has loosened thing up a bit.

I have fiddled with the external adjustment screw, but I can't seem to find a happy spot.

Also, I have rotten mileage from what folks here seem to get. Maybe 30mpg?

...
Good tunes man...good tunes...


Cold weather makes lean conditions more noticable- but then I see you are getting only 30mpg which means a lot of fuel.

If it has an external idle mixture adjusting screw someone has messed with it already. The stock one is accessed behind a plug with a small screwdriver. Or were you talking about the idle speed screw? Might not be a bad idea to pull it apart- go over what is in there. Stock should have a non-adjustable needle and a 145 main jet.

Like most have said. Start at the begining. Check the little filter fuel filter at the inlet.

I ran mine bone stock for probably 8K miles- no problems. Not being able to leave something bone stock I changed out the exhaust and the lean surge got worse. I did put the PC kit in mine and it made the bike much better- no cruise surge and more power up top.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #70778
Skidmarkart
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BTW - Thanks to JagLite and Mongle too. I was just thinking if I was going to go through the trouble of removing and disassembling it, that I would go ahead and jet it.

I did confirm one thing on the way home today... it runs perfect with the cold start enrichment circuit out. Exactly like I would expect a well tuned biked to run. No bog, no limping idle, power quickly when the throttle is opened.

Guess I will be learning about cleaning a carb this weekend. You can drink beer while doing that right?
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:23 PM   #70779
Mongle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Guess I will be learning about cleaning a carb this weekend. You can drink beer while doing that right?
Don't know if you have seen this posting yet; great info!

Carb bible for the DR.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347184


And I believe beer drinking is in the instrucions in that post!
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:35 PM   #70780
ER70S-2
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I'm going to post this before I accidently delete it, but I have more to add.
Ok, I'm done.

Please fill out your profile, state or country, it will help us figure out your riding conditions.
Like: what altitudes do you ride at?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Somewhat - the bike is fairly new to me. It wasn't running 100% when I got it, but it was running much better than it is now. In the past couple of weeks, it has gone downhill. There's more low-end bog (taking off from idle), and there is more popping when the throttle is released. Seems to run great with the choke on.

I got it about 4 weeks ago a 2005 with 800 miles... So, it has done a fair bit of sitting. The guy who had it before me got it as a present from his wife (cool wife right?), and put a total of 100 miles on it in the last year. I did that in the first day.

I don't know if the change in weather (it is much cooler here now) or simply riding a bike that hasn't been ridden that has loosened thing up a bit.

It is bone stock, never been off road, never had any service (to my knowledge) besides oil changes. I did one of those as soon as I got it, and it had very clean oil and a newer filter on it (someone had obviously done an oil change).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I have fiddled with the external adjustment screw, but I can't seem to find a happy spot.
Mongle asked: 'The right one or the left one?' Do you have a 'left one', or is it a brass plug (a mirror will be needed if it's still stock with a flush plug).



Jessepitt did this awesome photo essay: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=71
Including pics of the brass plug, this is one of them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Also, I have rotten mileage from what folks here seem to get. Maybe 30mpg?

Thanks for any info...
Stick around, someone will come up with the info to fixit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I just want my stock carb sorted, I am not really trying to do anything besides get rid of the bogging down, backfiring, and poor mileage. I am agnostic about how it is done.

I do not like the fact that there are many changes done at once, and apparently some sorting that may need to be done afterwards (this may be the case with any change to the carb). My biggest fear is getting into a situation where my bike is out of commission for a long time while I sort issues out.

Just about anyone here would no more about tuning that I do. I just like to ride it to work everyday and the one thing I do not have is time to chase gremlins out of the system.
The RED is for those hard of reading.

An easy way to tell if someone has been in the carb (which I doubt, too low mileage), is to look at the carb screws. A stock carb will have JIS screws (phillips look-a-likes). If you have allen heads (two on the top and two on the float bowl, you'll need a mirror), someone has been in the carb. The stock JIS screws are very tight, if your bit doesn't fit tight, you will strip them out. An impact wrench will help (one of those you hit with a hammer, not one with 6 hp and running on 175 pounds of air).

Just to the left of the petcock vacuum is an allen head screw w/washer; not stock. Before you start, buy 4 replacement allen head screws at any good hardware store, the carb screws are 5 x 14 mm. Buy 4, two top, two bottom



With mileage that poor and running lean; replace the pilot (fixes running better with the choke on), and these two o-rings (fixes your terrible mileage). They're metric and I'd suggest getting them from Zuki, Derek probably has them too.

Pilot jet itty-bitty orifice.



Leaky o-rings, murdered by ethanol. A light coat of grease will help the float assembly slip back into place.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JagLite View Post
Thanks Mongle,
Nice to have you speak up with your experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JagLite View Post
My experience is working with engineers, and I have learned that this rule is all too true.

Rule of engineering #1:

If it was not taught in the books at school
if it has not already been done
if it isn't my idea

It isn't possible


Quote:
Originally Posted by JagLite View Post
As Mongle said, dyno testing only helps, it is not the answer to all problems.
It is a tool to be used with knowledge and experience.
None of my bikes have ever seen a dyno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagLite View Post
Skidmarkart - sounds like your engine problem is just a carb that needs a complete cleaning by someone who knows what they are doing.
Could be you if you can read and follow directions.
Old gas has probably gummed things up and needs to be cleaned out.
Pilot jet is the common culprit I believe and while some have had success just cleaning it, most have found better results by replacing it.
Drain the old fuel, add something like Sea Foam to help clean where you can't see. This is normally the first step, but it sounds like the pilot is pretty much plugged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagLite View Post
Installing a jet kit will probably NOT solve the problem.
You said that you just want to ride, clean the carb, replace the pilot jet, two o-rings and put it back together stock. There are many of us happy with the stock stuff. If you get a lean surge, we'll talk about that later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagLite View Post
I have not found a competent mechanic at any mc shop so I do my own work.
I am not a mechanic either but I can read and follow directions.

BTW, the best tuner I have known tuned by ear.
Yes, he had his own dyno too.
He tested air pressure, temperature and humidity before every run.
He kept a detailed notebook of every condition of every run.
He is an artist. Most tuners are technicians at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
BTW - Thanks to JagLite and Mongle too. I was just thinking if I was going to go through the trouble of removing and disassembling it, that I would go ahead and jet it.
As JagLite said, "Ain't necessarily true."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I did confirm one thing on the way home today... it runs perfect with the cold start enrichment circuit out. Exactly like I would expect a well tuned biked to run. No bog, no limping idle, power quickly when the throttle is opened.
Pilot jet.

Check the filter while you're in there. The rest of the story: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=52


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Guess I will be learning about cleaning a carb this weekend. You can drink beer while doing that right?
If you're good with tools, yer golden. If not, all bets are off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
Don't know if you have seen this posting yet; great info!

Carb bible for the DR.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347184

And I believe beer drinking is in the instrucions in that post!
You don't have to read the whole thing, but there are lotsa pritty pictures, and you will learn lots. OBTW: Mongle is withholding information; many of the pics in the link are KTM BST-40. Just be aware there are differences, yours won't be identical.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
"BTW, I don't do style. It's a dirt bike, not some girlie dress-up thing." -

ER70S-2 screwed with this post 11-07-2012 at 05:44 PM
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:02 PM   #70781
Chill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
Carb bible for the DR.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347184


And I believe beer drinking is in the instrucions in that post!
Good info. Nice post. My carb is actually running fine but I DO like the sound of drinking beer and inhaling carb cleaner fumes and seeing things.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:50 PM   #70782
Mongle
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ER70S, great clarification! I actually forgot the bible was ktm, good catch!

Do you hire out for "organizing"?


SKIDMARKART- you ever make it toward charlotte? If you dont have any luck hit me up and we might be able to make something happen!

Mongle screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 07:59 PM
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:12 PM   #70783
heirhead
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lowering links

Hello,

Back to the lowering links. Just wanted to say Thanks to the responders. Mucho gracias.
I called ProCycle this am. and measured my links compared to the ones they sold me. Theres indeed is longer.
I had that backwards in my post. The difference is 1/4 of an inch longer and they told me it lowered bike by 1"
Said it did not and they asked if I lowered forks also. Forks were already lowered 3/4 of an inch so no. They said the 1" is a combo of the links 1/4 of an inch AND front forks lowered. Guess I'll lower front forks more or get 2" links. They do not sell them as I was told that 1" is all anybody needs. Used to 5'9" but now must be shorter as I want bike lower still. Am on the right track, will have it dialed in soon. The Bergdonk RED CIRCLE is fine as the space gets bigger when lowering. I THINK!!!

Thanks again for your help,

Heirhead
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:56 PM   #70784
ER70S-2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
ER70S, great clarification! I actually forgot the bible was ktm, good catch!

Do you hire out for "organizing"?
Oh, hell yeah; a place for everything and everything in its place. Send money and I'll let you in on everything I've learned.





Quote:
Originally Posted by heirhead View Post
Hello,

Back to the lowering links. Just wanted to say Thanks to the responders. Mucho gracias.
I called ProCycle this am. and measured my links compared to the ones they sold me. Theirs indeed is longer.
I had that backwards in my post. The difference is 1/4 of an inch longer and they told me it lowered bike by 1"
Said it did not and they asked if I lowered forks also. Forks were already lowered 3/4 of an inch so no. They said the 1" is a combo of the links 1/4 of an inch AND front forks lowered. Guess I'll lower front forks more or get 2" links. They do not sell them as I was told that 1" is all anybody needs. Used to 5'9" but now must be shorter as I want bike lower still. Am on the right track, will have it dialed in soon. The Bergdonk RED CIRCLE is fine as the space gets bigger when lowering. I THINK!!!

Thanks again for your help,

Heirhead
Thanks for the follow-up, inquiring minds want to know. I used to be 5'10" and lower would be better for me too. Let us know about the 'red circle'. I also hope it gets bigger with longer links.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
"BTW, I don't do style. It's a dirt bike, not some girlie dress-up thing." -
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:14 PM   #70785
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heirhead View Post
Back to the lowering links. Just wanted to say Thanks to the responders. Mucho gracias.
I called ProCycle this am. and measured my links compared to the ones they sold me. Theres indeed is longer.
I had that backwards in my post. The difference is 1/4 of an inch longer and they told me it lowered bike by 1"
Said it did not and they asked if I lowered forks also. Forks were already lowered 3/4 of an inch so no. They said the 1" is a combo of the links 1/4 of an inch AND front forks lowered.
I don't think you fully understood. The 1/4" longer links lower the rear suspension by one inch. Only the rear end of the bike is lowered. You can't lower the whole bike with links in the rear suspension. Since you sit near the middle of the bike the seat height will not change by the full amount. If you lower the front an equal amount to the rear then the seat height will also be lowered by the same amount.

Watch out for bottoming problems with the 2" lowering links. That's why we don't sell them.
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