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Old 11-07-2012, 08:15 PM   #6256
Reshad
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Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Rodrigues, Mauritius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK.RD.RNR View Post
So... If any of you guys hear a squeaking/ chirping sound that does not seem to come from any of the obvious places (ie; skid plate, engine mount bolts, etc..). Do yourselves a favor, and tow/ truck the bike home, drain the fluids, pull the clutch clutch cover, and check the clutch assembly for play.

It seems that my bearing for the main shaft into the transmission let loose, and took some of the engine case with it...



Those needle bearings I was hoping were the problem sure held up well..











Not bad for 30k miles..







I decided to put away a few of these after I realized I was dealing with the worst case scenario.

Sorry to bring up this painful set of pics, but I believe I'm developing the same problem, albeit at an early stage, hearing clutch noises and feeling vibration in my bike. I removed the clutch cover, no apparent damage praise the lord, but found my clutch cage and has in/out and sideways play. I'm guessing either my primary shaft bearing, bearing seat or shaft itself are worn and would like to remove the clutch cage to better assess the situation. Unfortunately I don't have the special tool (Gear segment 75029081000) to block the clutch and remove the inner clutch hub nut :/ I read somewhere in SMJ that if you put the bike in gear and apply the brakes the nut can be undone. I tried this with the help of a friend but we were unable to make it budge (Lock-washer unlocked). Also tried the cloth wedge between the gears trick and while it effectively stops the clutch from turning, the nut simply won't budge. Seems like either KTM put on permanent thread-locker or torqued it like a bastard, or both. The prescribed torque is 100 Nm (73.8 lbs ft) but with a 1 foot long wrench i can put my entire weight (145 lbs) on it without any effect i.e. an effective 200 Nm torque. Is this normal in your opinion? Next logical step to me is to heat up the nut a bit and try again... Any recommendations on how to proceed?
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:23 PM   #6257
crankshaft OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reshad View Post
Sorry to bring up this painful set of pics, but I believe I'm developing the same problem, albeit at an early stage, hearing clutch noises and feeling vibration in my bike. I removed the clutch cover, no apparent damage praise the lord, but found my clutch cage and has in/out and sideways play. I'm guessing either my primary shaft bearing, bearing seat or shaft itself are worn and would like to remove the clutch cage to better assess the situation. Unfortunately I don't have the special tool (Gear segment 75029081000) to block the clutch and remove the inner clutch hub nut :/ I read somewhere in SMJ that if you put the bike in gear and apply the brakes the nut can be undone. I tried this with the help of a friend but we were unable to make it budge (Lock-washer unlocked). Also tried the cloth wedge between the gears trick and while it effectively stops the clutch from turning, the nut simply won't budge. Seems like either KTM put on permanent thread-locker or torqued it like a bastard, or both. The prescribed torque is 100 Nm (73.8 lbs ft) but with a 1 foot long wrench i can put my entire weight (145 lbs) on it without any effect i.e. an effective 200 Nm torque. Is this normal in your opinion? Next logical step to me is to heat up the nut a bit and try again... Any recommendations on how to proceed?
you need more leverage or an impact gun. Try a socket and breaker bar and if that doesn't work find a pipe for more leverage. Good luck!
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:34 PM   #6258
Reshad
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Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
you need more leverage or an impact gun. Try a socket and breaker bar and if that doesn't work find a pipe for more leverage. Good luck!
Cheers for the advice crankshaft. Would def prefer to use an impact gun, but i don't have one, the bike is in my sitting room oil drained and the closest impact gun is down town and attached to an unmovable compressor... I'm concerned if i apply too much torque using a breaker bar or extension pipe the primary shaft might get sectioned as it is hollow in that part, or that the gears will eat up my wedge putting unnecessary perpendicular pressure on the crank and clutch cage cog, pushing either of them them out of trueness... What do you reckon are they all rock solid and i should just apply pressure until the nut loosens?
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:18 PM   #6259
Reshad
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Managed to remove the nut by mimicking an impact wrench by firmly using a piece of wood as impactor against the flex wrench so as not to damage my ratchet..three taps and the nut came loose! I then removed the inner clutch hub; it looks mint in condition. The clutch cage definitely has some play at the needle-bearing interface and it came out easily too. All contact surfaces look fine with only normal wear. If the clutch cage play is not normal, then either the bearing is worn or either of the surfaces, shaft or clutch cage are worn. The primary shaft bearing looks intact, no traces of seizure or damage to the bearing cage, but here’s what I found that doesn’t seem quite right…The main shaft turns freely inside the bearing, no radial play but full axial play, so either the shaft or bearing surface is worn :/ I’d put my money on the shaft being softer and wearing rather than the bearing. Do yous reckon it’s it normal the shaft moves in and out of the bearing like that? Doesn’t seem normal to me, but as I’m no expert with the LC4 I might be wrong. The fact the whole assembly looks in such good condition, I’m tempted to replace the needle bearing only, put it all back together and play it by ear. Any thoughts? The alternative is a full rebuild to check/change the shaft or bearing, yikes for the wallet :/
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:48 AM   #6260
BK.RD.RNR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reshad View Post
Managed to remove the nut by mimicking an impact wrench by firmly using a piece of wood as impactor against the flex wrench so as not to damage my ratchet..three taps and the nut came loose! I then removed the inner clutch hub; it looks mint in condition. The clutch cage definitely has some play at the needle-bearing interface and it came out easily too. All contact surfaces look fine with only normal wear. If the clutch cage play is not normal, then either the bearing is worn or either of the surfaces, shaft or clutch cage are worn. The primary shaft bearing looks intact, no traces of seizure or damage to the bearing cage, but here’s what I found that doesn’t seem quite right…The main shaft turns freely inside the bearing, no radial play but full axial play, so either the shaft or bearing surface is worn :/ I’d put my money on the shaft being softer and wearing rather than the bearing. Do yous reckon it’s it normal the shaft moves in and out of the bearing like that? Doesn’t seem normal to me, but as I’m no expert with the LC4 I might be wrong. The fact the whole assembly looks in such good condition, I’m tempted to replace the needle bearing only, put it all back together and play it by ear. Any thoughts? The alternative is a full rebuild to check/change the shaft or bearing, yikes for the wallet :/

I am no one to diagnose your issue from afar, but my thoughts..

I now believe that my issue was caused by a leaky slave cylinder. When I took a few of the metal pieces (still covefred in oil) and put them on a clean piece of paper, I noticed a clear ring soak into the paper before the engine oil did.
I think it was mineral oil from the clutch system. If I am correct, the bearing that went on me was the one closest to where that mineral oil would escape the clutch system.

I would say from the sounds of it, you are in much better shape than me at this point (having caught it earlier). Do you have any marking from the basket on the inside of the clutch cover?
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:42 AM   #6261
blueillusion10
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tps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Trail View Post
My coil connectors were fine and I was dissapointed.

I pulled the injector but I have never messed with one on a bike before. I don't know how much fuel should come out on startup. When I turn on the key the fuel line going to the injector "chubbed up" so I figured the fuel pump is building pressure. I listened carefully to it though and it seems a bit noisy.

Cranking the bike with the throttle closed produced a light mist, I just don't know how much it should be. I do know that a bosch CIS system that just pees fuel all the time would produce a wetter output at the injector.
Hey,

I had very similar issues with my 09. I went thru everything you are, new fuel filter, new injector, new pressure regulator(that one was my fault). Spent hours screwing with it. In the end it was a faulty throttle position sensor. 100 bucks fixed everything. I hate to say it but bring it to a dealer and have them plug it in to the bazillion dollar ktm computer. In a couple minutes they will let you know if its a computer/electrical issue.

good luck with it.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:50 AM   #6262
Reshad
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Axial play in main-shaft

I also have a leaky slave…my hydraulic fluid container has got progressively darker over the last few months; the oil level is still the same though! From what I have read in the other forums, this appears to be a common problem and not just with KTM. Anyhow, I need to get around replacing the slave O-ring then the fluid, once I've decided how to proceed with my shaft problem.

I doubt such a tiny amount of hydraulic fluid being constantly mixed into fresh oil could attack a bearing or shaft for that matter, any fluid experts out there? I'm more inclined to believing you had a random catastrophic bearing failure, but here are some points to ponder over…

1. If the slave does leak fluid to the engine and the fluid does attack bearings or shaft metal, it would begin leaking into the engine on the LHS of the engine close to the LHS main-shaft bearing, causing mayhem there… Have you split your case yet to see the state of things on the LHS?

2. Looking at the exploded diagram of a 690 LC4, hydraulic fluid cannot end up directly at the RHS main-shaft bearing. Any fluid leftover from the LHS heading towards the clutch side would have to work its way through the main-shaft and in so doing would end up being dumped inside the clutch via the pressure piece/bearing. At the speed the clutch turns any hydraulic fluid IMO would probably get flung all over the place under the clutch cover, mixing well into the oil if they are miscible. Even if the bike was not running and fluid seeped out from the slave through the shaft, it would drip from the clutch rather that move inwards towards the bearing.

3. If the fluid was the cause in my case, why are all my visible contact surfaces so clean? For instance, at the needle bearing i should seen more wear where the needles contact the shaft compared to where there is no contact, yet, the shaft surface is clean and even from the main-shaft bearing all the way to the inner clutch hub mating area. Similar observation on the clutch cage needle bearing mating surface, clean and even.

4. Lastly, if hydraulic fluid can attack bearings, then the bearing failure should affect many more people and not just KTM users seen as the leaky slave is a common moto issue. Unless it’s down to the specially silver coated bearings, but then many more KTM owners would have the problem.

Considering these four points, I really can't associate my problem with a hydraulic fluid leak. If anything my bearing is bad and caught occasionally, eventually wearing the shaft, but that would have to happen often and I would then expect to see a bright blue bearing yet it appears as fresh as. Furthermore, with the clutch removed the main-shaft bearing spins ever so smoothly.

The fact my main-shaft slides so smoothly in and out of the bearing means either the two bearings or both sides of the shaft (more probable) are worn. I may just have a naff shaft they forgot to harden or perhaps it's the other way around the the bearing were not properly hardened, but both is a bit farfetched! I'm so tempted to leave it as is and change only the needle bearing which has some radial play, rather than have to tear down the whole engine. Big risk though, especially when I see the pics in your post.

BTW, no markings whatsoever on my clutch cover, the shaft doesn't move out far enough, yet, for the basket to touch it. Would love to have a clear clutch cover, that would be an awesome Powerpart and let you keep an eye on goings on inside
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:54 AM   #6263
BK.RD.RNR
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Interesting points.

Although I don't know if it is a language barrier, mistake, or if you are not aware.. The fluid in the hydraulic clutch system is mineral oil. If this is a misconception on your part, I'm sure you must realize the difference in lubricity between mineral oil, and hydraulic fluid in that environment..

I find your theory about the way such a leak would end up in the engine case interesting, and worhty of consideration.

I did fail to mention that I was having clutch engagement/ disengagement issues over a period of months before my failure happened. Flushing the system of old fluid, and bleeding it "seemed" to cure the problem (had to do 2 or 3 times in those 5 or so months preceeding the failure).

My theory could certainly be flawed, it wouldn't be the first time.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:23 AM   #6264
NovaMoto
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I think you would have to have a lot of mineral fluid in the case to damage a bearing. Many of us have run our engines with a litre of coolant/water mix in the case for kilometers without knowing or without choice. I'm one of those guys & 5,000km later my engine is as quiet as it was when it was new. That said, perhaps the longevity has been compromised

Quote:
Originally Posted by BK.RD.RNR View Post
Interesting points.

Although I don't know if it is a language barrier, mistake, or if you are not aware.. The fluid in the hydraulic clutch system is mineral oil. If this is a misconception on your part, I'm sure you must realize the difference in lubricity between mineral oil, and hydraulic fluid in that environment..

I find your theory about the way such a leak would end up in the engine case interesting, and worhty of consideration.

I did fail to mention that I was having clutch engagement/ disengagement issues over a period of months before my failure happened. Flushing the system of old fluid, and bleeding it "seemed" to cure the problem (had to do 2 or 3 times in those 5 or so months preceeding the failure).

My theory could certainly be flawed, it wouldn't be the first time.

NovaMoto screwed with this post 11-08-2012 at 09:52 AM
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:03 AM   #6265
rickypanecatyl
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Fair price for new '11

Hey guys I've got a brand new '11 690R enduro I'm thinking of putting up for sale and was wondering what y'all think a good price is? I haven't discussed that particular bike much for legal reasons - its actually better than new; here is the scoop on it.

1. It's a brand new '11 that I haven't ridden or even sat on.
2. It had 2 days being set up and going over by KTM NA's top two 690 mechanics - Tyler Berner andd 1 other guys I'm forgetting right now. It was not touched by a local dealer! Most on here are familiar with my bikes reliability problems as of course is KTM NA and Austria. As they thought some of those reliability issues may have come from poor dealer set up this bike got to have 2 days time of the top 2 KTM guys going over it.
3. In addition to the stock dash/light it also has the larger 08 E set up.
4. KTM hard parts pannier racks; pelican cases.
5. Stock seat AND Renazco suede.

And lots of little stuff - any ideas what's its worth? It's in the Seattle area if that makes a difference. Did the '12 knock down the price of the 654's? What are guys walking out the door with them for?
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:12 AM   #6266
wsmc831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
Hey guys I've got a brand new '11 690R enduro I'm thinking of putting up for sale and was wondering what y'all think a good price is? I haven't discussed that particular bike much for legal reasons - its actually better than new; here is the scoop on it.

1. It's a brand new '11 that I haven't ridden or even sat on.
2. It had 2 days being set up and going over by KTM NA's top two 690 mechanics - Tyler Berner andd 1 other guys I'm forgetting right now. It was not touched by a local dealer! Most on here are familiar with my bikes reliability problems as of course is KTM NA and Austria. As they thought some of those reliability issues may have come from poor dealer set up this bike got to have 2 days time of the top 2 KTM guys going over it.
3. In addition to the stock dash/light it also has the larger 08 E set up.
4. KTM hard parts pannier racks; pelican cases.
5. Stock seat AND Renazco suede.

And lots of little stuff - any ideas what's its worth? It's in the Seattle area if that makes a difference. Did the '12 knock down the price of the 654's? What are guys walking out the door with them for?
I bought my 10 from a guy in Bellingham in April (I'm from SF bay area). Fairly stock with 4k miles, 8200. I would guess 9k or so. Friend bought the only other one in the NW for sale at the time a bit later, about 11k out the door for a new 12.


How was the 08 dash added? Sure hate the small one of my 10, though I have it covered up with a zumo 660.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:43 AM   #6267
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I paid $9600 for my new 2012 (+taxes etc.etc..). No setup fee.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:34 PM   #6268
rickypanecatyl
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Originally Posted by wsmc831 View Post

How was the 08 dash added? Sure hate the small one of my 10, though I have it covered up with a zumo 660.
Thanks for the feedback guys! As for the dash I haven't even seen it but will tomorrow! It has the stock one mounted but the light, mounting bracket and dash from the 08 with it; I'm hoping its nots a problem. Without question the 08 headlight is better. I do prefer the 08 dash as well WHEN it's working which on mine has never been for too long; actually it's probably the '12 but I don't even know if there is a difference.

Lightwise I've been running a FX-R, 50 watt Bi-Xenon projector which has the most brillant road legal pattern possibly anywhere. I haven't really plugged it because all though the light is 100X better than stock its cheap and not very rugged.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:18 PM   #6269
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Would love to know how they got the larger dash in there. Same dash on my 08 duke, friends 08 e, and 2012 r...but different connector from my 2010, worthless dash. More room behind the light like 08/12 sure would be nice as well...
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:10 PM   #6270
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I paid $9700 for my 12 plus taxes and reg.
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