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Old 11-08-2012, 05:50 AM   #6256
Reshad
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Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Rodrigues, Mauritius
Oddometer: 13
Axial play in main-shaft

I also have a leaky slave…my hydraulic fluid container has got progressively darker over the last few months; the oil level is still the same though! From what I have read in the other forums, this appears to be a common problem and not just with KTM. Anyhow, I need to get around replacing the slave O-ring then the fluid, once I've decided how to proceed with my shaft problem.

I doubt such a tiny amount of hydraulic fluid being constantly mixed into fresh oil could attack a bearing or shaft for that matter, any fluid experts out there? I'm more inclined to believing you had a random catastrophic bearing failure, but here are some points to ponder over…

1. If the slave does leak fluid to the engine and the fluid does attack bearings or shaft metal, it would begin leaking into the engine on the LHS of the engine close to the LHS main-shaft bearing, causing mayhem there… Have you split your case yet to see the state of things on the LHS?

2. Looking at the exploded diagram of a 690 LC4, hydraulic fluid cannot end up directly at the RHS main-shaft bearing. Any fluid leftover from the LHS heading towards the clutch side would have to work its way through the main-shaft and in so doing would end up being dumped inside the clutch via the pressure piece/bearing. At the speed the clutch turns any hydraulic fluid IMO would probably get flung all over the place under the clutch cover, mixing well into the oil if they are miscible. Even if the bike was not running and fluid seeped out from the slave through the shaft, it would drip from the clutch rather that move inwards towards the bearing.

3. If the fluid was the cause in my case, why are all my visible contact surfaces so clean? For instance, at the needle bearing i should seen more wear where the needles contact the shaft compared to where there is no contact, yet, the shaft surface is clean and even from the main-shaft bearing all the way to the inner clutch hub mating area. Similar observation on the clutch cage needle bearing mating surface, clean and even.

4. Lastly, if hydraulic fluid can attack bearings, then the bearing failure should affect many more people and not just KTM users seen as the leaky slave is a common moto issue. Unless it’s down to the specially silver coated bearings, but then many more KTM owners would have the problem.

Considering these four points, I really can't associate my problem with a hydraulic fluid leak. If anything my bearing is bad and caught occasionally, eventually wearing the shaft, but that would have to happen often and I would then expect to see a bright blue bearing yet it appears as fresh as. Furthermore, with the clutch removed the main-shaft bearing spins ever so smoothly.

The fact my main-shaft slides so smoothly in and out of the bearing means either the two bearings or both sides of the shaft (more probable) are worn. I may just have a naff shaft they forgot to harden or perhaps it's the other way around the the bearing were not properly hardened, but both is a bit farfetched! I'm so tempted to leave it as is and change only the needle bearing which has some radial play, rather than have to tear down the whole engine. Big risk though, especially when I see the pics in your post.

BTW, no markings whatsoever on my clutch cover, the shaft doesn't move out far enough, yet, for the basket to touch it. Would love to have a clear clutch cover, that would be an awesome Powerpart and let you keep an eye on goings on inside
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:54 AM   #6257
BK.RD.RNR
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Interesting points.

Although I don't know if it is a language barrier, mistake, or if you are not aware.. The fluid in the hydraulic clutch system is mineral oil. If this is a misconception on your part, I'm sure you must realize the difference in lubricity between mineral oil, and hydraulic fluid in that environment..

I find your theory about the way such a leak would end up in the engine case interesting, and worhty of consideration.

I did fail to mention that I was having clutch engagement/ disengagement issues over a period of months before my failure happened. Flushing the system of old fluid, and bleeding it "seemed" to cure the problem (had to do 2 or 3 times in those 5 or so months preceeding the failure).

My theory could certainly be flawed, it wouldn't be the first time.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:23 AM   #6258
NovaMoto
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I think you would have to have a lot of mineral fluid in the case to damage a bearing. Many of us have run our engines with a litre of coolant/water mix in the case for kilometers without knowing or without choice. I'm one of those guys & 5,000km later my engine is as quiet as it was when it was new. That said, perhaps the longevity has been compromised

Quote:
Originally Posted by BK.RD.RNR View Post
Interesting points.

Although I don't know if it is a language barrier, mistake, or if you are not aware.. The fluid in the hydraulic clutch system is mineral oil. If this is a misconception on your part, I'm sure you must realize the difference in lubricity between mineral oil, and hydraulic fluid in that environment..

I find your theory about the way such a leak would end up in the engine case interesting, and worhty of consideration.

I did fail to mention that I was having clutch engagement/ disengagement issues over a period of months before my failure happened. Flushing the system of old fluid, and bleeding it "seemed" to cure the problem (had to do 2 or 3 times in those 5 or so months preceeding the failure).

My theory could certainly be flawed, it wouldn't be the first time.

NovaMoto screwed with this post 11-08-2012 at 09:52 AM
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:03 AM   #6259
rickypanecatyl
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Fair price for new '11

Hey guys I've got a brand new '11 690R enduro I'm thinking of putting up for sale and was wondering what y'all think a good price is? I haven't discussed that particular bike much for legal reasons - its actually better than new; here is the scoop on it.

1. It's a brand new '11 that I haven't ridden or even sat on.
2. It had 2 days being set up and going over by KTM NA's top two 690 mechanics - Tyler Berner andd 1 other guys I'm forgetting right now. It was not touched by a local dealer! Most on here are familiar with my bikes reliability problems as of course is KTM NA and Austria. As they thought some of those reliability issues may have come from poor dealer set up this bike got to have 2 days time of the top 2 KTM guys going over it.
3. In addition to the stock dash/light it also has the larger 08 E set up.
4. KTM hard parts pannier racks; pelican cases.
5. Stock seat AND Renazco suede.

And lots of little stuff - any ideas what's its worth? It's in the Seattle area if that makes a difference. Did the '12 knock down the price of the 654's? What are guys walking out the door with them for?
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:12 AM   #6260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
Hey guys I've got a brand new '11 690R enduro I'm thinking of putting up for sale and was wondering what y'all think a good price is? I haven't discussed that particular bike much for legal reasons - its actually better than new; here is the scoop on it.

1. It's a brand new '11 that I haven't ridden or even sat on.
2. It had 2 days being set up and going over by KTM NA's top two 690 mechanics - Tyler Berner andd 1 other guys I'm forgetting right now. It was not touched by a local dealer! Most on here are familiar with my bikes reliability problems as of course is KTM NA and Austria. As they thought some of those reliability issues may have come from poor dealer set up this bike got to have 2 days time of the top 2 KTM guys going over it.
3. In addition to the stock dash/light it also has the larger 08 E set up.
4. KTM hard parts pannier racks; pelican cases.
5. Stock seat AND Renazco suede.

And lots of little stuff - any ideas what's its worth? It's in the Seattle area if that makes a difference. Did the '12 knock down the price of the 654's? What are guys walking out the door with them for?
I bought my 10 from a guy in Bellingham in April (I'm from SF bay area). Fairly stock with 4k miles, 8200. I would guess 9k or so. Friend bought the only other one in the NW for sale at the time a bit later, about 11k out the door for a new 12.


How was the 08 dash added? Sure hate the small one of my 10, though I have it covered up with a zumo 660.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:43 AM   #6261
BK.RD.RNR
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I paid $9600 for my new 2012 (+taxes etc.etc..). No setup fee.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:34 PM   #6262
rickypanecatyl
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Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc831 View Post

How was the 08 dash added? Sure hate the small one of my 10, though I have it covered up with a zumo 660.
Thanks for the feedback guys! As for the dash I haven't even seen it but will tomorrow! It has the stock one mounted but the light, mounting bracket and dash from the 08 with it; I'm hoping its nots a problem. Without question the 08 headlight is better. I do prefer the 08 dash as well WHEN it's working which on mine has never been for too long; actually it's probably the '12 but I don't even know if there is a difference.

Lightwise I've been running a FX-R, 50 watt Bi-Xenon projector which has the most brillant road legal pattern possibly anywhere. I haven't really plugged it because all though the light is 100X better than stock its cheap and not very rugged.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:18 PM   #6263
wsmc831
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Would love to know how they got the larger dash in there. Same dash on my 08 duke, friends 08 e, and 2012 r...but different connector from my 2010, worthless dash. More room behind the light like 08/12 sure would be nice as well...
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:10 PM   #6264
Pantah
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I paid $9700 for my 12 plus taxes and reg.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:33 AM   #6265
Reshad
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Location: Rodrigues, Mauritius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK.RD.RNR View Post
Interesting points.

Although I don't know if it is a language barrier, mistake, or if you are not aware.. The fluid in the hydraulic clutch system is mineral oil. If this is a misconception on your part, I'm sure you must realize the difference in lubricity between mineral oil, and hydraulic fluid in that environment..

I find your theory about the way such a leak would end up in the engine case interesting, and worhty of consideration.

I did fail to mention that I was having clutch engagement/ disengagement issues over a period of months before my failure happened. Flushing the system of old fluid, and bleeding it "seemed" to cure the problem (had to do 2 or 3 times in those 5 or so months preceeding the failure).

My theory could certainly be flawed, it wouldn't be the first time.
No doubt about it, mineral oil won't be a very good lubricant compared to the recommended Motorex, but for a significant drop in overall lubricity, I think you would need to have more mineral oil go in than seepage amounts. My clutch has mostly been fine though i must admit, recently, on a few occasions it didn't go straight into neutral as it always has...might be a sign. Will dismantle my slave, see what I find and report back.

Did you ever manage to lay your hands on another engine to replace your damaged one?
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:48 AM   #6266
BK.RD.RNR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reshad View Post
No doubt about it, mineral oil won't be a very good lubricant compared to the recommended Motorex, but for a significant drop in overall lubricity, I think you would need to have more mineral oil go in than seepage amounts. My clutch has mostly been fine though i must admit, recently, on a few occasions it didn't go straight into neutral as it always has...might be a sign. Will dismantle my slave, see what I find and report back.

Did you ever manage to lay your hands on another engine to replace your damaged one?
As of yet I have not repaired mine... I did however go out and get a new 2012 690E. I have not decided if I will bother repairing the 08, or just use it for parts etc...


Speaking of which, I have a number of NTO, and used parts taking up space in the garage. I doubt that I'll sell any of the NTO stuff at this point, but I have an 08 stock muffler, the tailrack with the horseshoe thingy on it, an 08 stock seat (with damaged seat pan), and some other stuff.

If somebody needs something, feel free to pm me.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:11 PM   #6267
Gros Buck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reshad View Post
Next logical step to me is to heat up the nut a bit and try again... Any recommendations on how to proceed?
At 212 F, Red Loctite looses roughly 30% of its strength. It looses 80% at 300 F.

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Old 11-10-2012, 09:17 PM   #6268
Reshad
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Location: Rodrigues, Mauritius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros Buck View Post
At 212 F, Red Loctite looses roughly 30% of its strength. It looses 80% at 300 F.

Paul Jr
Cheers Paul Jr. I managed to get the nut loose in the end, but good facts to know for future reference.
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:55 AM   #6269
Reshad
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I've completely dismantled my clutch; everything I could check with the service manual is in spec and my only remaining concern is the ~0.5 mm axial play in the mainshaft. Could this be normal? ...no mention in the manual! Looking at the half washers, since they could decrease axial play when the clutch is assembled, I see they both appear to be crushed, or maybe it's just the normal finish, would greatly appreciate your views. They both measure 2.95 mm in thickness, does anyone know if this is in spec, as there is nothing noted in the service manual on this. Similarly, the stepped washer i measure is 5.1 mm in thickness, is this in spec? Cheers
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:19 AM   #6270
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
I paid $9700 for my 12 plus taxes and reg.
Nice bike...

You from RI Pantah ?
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