ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Some Assembly Required
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-14-2012, 07:03 AM   #16
uraberg OP
whosaberg?
 
uraberg's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Durham, NC
Oddometer: 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by HapHazard View Post
snip...Around here, it seems like everybody in DMV makes up their own rules as they see fit that particular day...snip
That is exactly the case here in NC as well. Thanks for the info though. Something like this may still be in between any rules, since it is more of a modification of an existing vehicle than it is a new construction.
uraberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 07:43 PM   #17
TUCKERS
the famous james
 
TUCKERS's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Villa Maria Sanitarium, Claremont, CA.
Oddometer: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanshanomi View Post
It's not always that simple. In some states (including my home of Missouri), a VIN is only legal as long as the vehicle remains "substantially and recognizably" the same as manufactured. In other words, if it's a Suzuki 600 motorcycle, a cop better look at it and say, "Yea, that looks like a Suzuki 600 to me." Once you modify it to the point where it is no longer recognizable as the vehicle you started with (and changing the number of wheels is pretty much a sure dinger on that one), you may be required by law to get a Special Construction title, even if the original VIN is still present on the frame.

Be forewarned you might be required to provide a copy of the bike's original title (front and back!) for not just the frame and motor, but EVERY non-new part on the bike! For new parts, you must have an itemized receipt proving you bought it new. At least that's how it is in Missouri.

And the worse case scenario is, no matter what state you live in, if it looks like you incorporated the head stock into the frame specifically to maintain the VIN stamp; then you can get hauled in for VIN tampering, which is a FEDERAL felony.
I'd have to disagree with most of this. I was a Licensed California Vehicle Dealer from 1981-2004 and became a DMV paperwork/law expert.

One could take said Suzuki 600 motorcycle and simply put a race fairing on it and substantially alter it's appearance.

Or take Suzuki 600 and take all the fairing off, add a sidecar and different fuel tank, lights and etc.

Adding a wheel cannot be unlawful.

So if you remove the front forks from your Suzuki 600 motorcycle and weld them to a seat and two steerable front wheels you still have the same vehicle as in the examples above.

Altering/tampering with a VIN is just that. I've had VIN's made at trophy shops for stolen/recovered vehicles.

I'd say it's all conjecture and subject to interpretation.

There are many Manx VW bugs running around that bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever of the original vehicle but run on the VIN under the passenger seat.

How about the VW/Bugatti? (Google it) Registered as a VW bug...looks like an ancient Bugatti.

Or any number of kit cars...Cobra, Mercedes K, Porsche racer, google them there are hundreds, most of them disguised as a hot car made from and registered as some mundane form of transport.

It all started for me in 1966 with a 50's 'Bond Mini-Car' (google it). A three wheeled alloy car with two wheels in the back and one in front, powered by a 250cc TWO STROKE single cylinder Villiers...KICK START ONLY..engine. I had to open the bonnet (hood) to kick start the engine. You only needed a motorcycle license to drive this car.

Most anything can and will be done. Laws are circumvented everyday on car pool lanes and smog requirements. Even the BIG manufacturers by pass laws....safety requirements are less on Trucks rather than passenger cars...why do you suppose almost every personal vehicle is a SUV anymore? You guessed it....less requirements.

If there is a will there is a way. We would have no new stuff and few inventions if people couldn't tinker around.

There is no law that says I can't cut my Hayabusa in half and put a car seat in there and an extra wheel. There are laws as to safety equipment, lights/brakes/steering and etc., and all that had better work unless I want a ticket.

So I can put a Goldwing engine in my VW bug and it's still a Bug. So I can put a VW engine in my Goldwing and it's still a Goldwing. So I can put the front end of my Harley Sportster on the back end of my pre 17 digit VW Bug (with engine) now I have a VIN on the Harley front end and a VIN under the seat of the Bug...work that one out (I've seen this vehicle numerous times in Los Angeles). Hundreds of Harley Trikes around, new and old, the old ones are generally VW powered.

I call poo poo on anyone that says this is not legal or simple, I say it is both LEGAL AND SIMPLE. Keep it simple. Just be mindful of safety and VIN requirements. Any vehicle with a pre 17 digit VIN can have that VIN hidden, it doesn't even need to be on display. Any 17 digit VIN is now known as a 'Public VIN' and must be displayed in plain sight. That is why after a certain year (1970 was it?) all vehicles have a Federal Public VIN, on cars and trucks it is on the windshield post. Look at old cars, some are on the dash, some are on the inside door post, some under the hood, some under the seat (VW).
When you go to DMV with an old vehicle and they say "it is out of the system" usually it's a pre 17 digit and not on the computer. The computer changed a lot of things. It can be used to one's advantage. Now the DMV just looks at the computer and works from whatever the screen says. A licensed dealer, LEO, wrecking yards and some others have access to the same screen as the DMV....so you have a great starting point and parameters with which to work with.

It's like our ex Governor Arnold riding his motorcycle and sidecar without a M on his license, it's considered a car! Yet my three wheeled car was considered a motorcycle!

I wouldn't sweat the details, honest I wouldn't.
__________________
James and Colleen Tucker.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
DMV work/insurance/registration/titles/address use/room rental/motorbike&vehicle buying/travelers help/problems solved
TUCKERS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 07:11 PM   #18
Tanshanomi
Your Favorite Uncle
 
Tanshanomi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Heart of America
Oddometer: 606
Quote:
Originally Posted by TUCKERS View Post
There are many Manx VW bugs running around that bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever of the original vehicle but run on the VIN under the passenger seat.
And not one of them is legal. You can spout whatever rationalizations and weasel words such as "interpretation" that you want, but the plain fact is that possessing a vehicle that has the original manufacturer's ID removed is a federal felony. I was told that personally, on no uncertain terms, by the Director of the Missouri State Patrol's inspection dept after I'd bought one of those dune buggies with a VW title and attempted to register it. It cost me $1280 in legal fees and nearly a year in the courts to straighten it out. I was only able to keep the car with the help of a sympathetic court judge.
Tanshanomi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 02:36 AM   #19
TUCKERS
the famous james
 
TUCKERS's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Villa Maria Sanitarium, Claremont, CA.
Oddometer: 11,615
possessing a vehicle that has the original manufacturer's ID removed is a federal felony

We are talking about USING the original ID in the build. Not removing it, altering it, USING it.

Funny when I went to get my stolen/recovered VW Cabriolet from the impound yard, it had the Public Vin Removed. They gave me the vehicle, I put my dealer plate on it and drove it back to the car lot. I possessed it. I fixed and replaced all the stolen/damaged items, had a VIN made and sold it in a VERY large vehicle auction complex that runs every VIN and inspects every VIN before entry to auction is allowed. Possessed and drove that thing for a couple of months prior to sale. Expect the buyer possesses it and drives it too.

weasel words...do like that though, haven't heard that one.

Don't think I used rationalize.....interpretation sure.....just like the Judge interpreted the law so you could drive your Manx Buggy.
So go on Ebay and 'search' kit car...I do..almost daily. You will find hundreds of Fiero's and Mustangs and all manner of crap disguised as fast, hot cars. All of them running on a VIN from the original mundane vehicle. Pontiac Fiero Ferrari's!
Bugatti VW's. Ferrari Daytona Datsuns. Ford Pinto Model A Fords. Some of these vehicles are offered for over $50,000.

So, whats to stop me pulling the body off my VW Bug and throwing on a Porsche 356 Cab body on top? NOTHING, I've done it and sold them on the used car lot. I've slammed Bugs, raised Bugs, shortened Bugs, cut the roof off Bugs, welded two different Bugs together. I made a whole new frame for a Ford Model A and used the vin from the original vehicle I had. Nothing was original on that car except the VIN. V8 engine replaced a flat four, all wheels and suspension was brand new up to date equipment, the inside looked like an aircraft, guess what?...it was a 32 Ford...sure was...not weasel worded interpreted as one..it was/is one....mine and thousands of others in possession by enthusiasts all over USA.

It's all about interpretation...it's not a weasel word...it's in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:

2: an instance of artistic interpretation in performance or ADAPTATION.
2: to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgement, or CIRCUMSTANCE.
3: to REPRESENT by means of art.

Take a look at the web site in which a guy puts a JET ENGINE in the back of a New Beetle and keeps the OEM in front.
Fun times at the smog station. Fun times when he encounters LEO.

It's called 'vehicle customizing'...it's the great American pastime. It's not a crime.
__________________
James and Colleen Tucker.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
DMV work/insurance/registration/titles/address use/room rental/motorbike&vehicle buying/travelers help/problems solved
TUCKERS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 07:09 AM   #20
HapHazard
t00 0ld 2b n00b
 
HapHazard's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: Central CT
Oddometer: 2,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by TUCKERS View Post
It's called 'vehicle customizing'...it's the great American pastime. It's not a crime.
That depends on where you live.

Someone with a dealer's license has lots more latitude when processing paperwork and registration than John Q. Public does around here. DMV can treat you like a criminal for the offense of trying to have fun with a vehicle. I went through "composite vehicle inspection" for a titled kit car purchased out of state. If I didn't know some people who knew people in DMV, I don't know how long it would have taken - as it was it took me 2 months. YMMV.
HapHazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 10:59 AM   #21
Tanshanomi
Your Favorite Uncle
 
Tanshanomi's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Heart of America
Oddometer: 606
Obviously, I'm not going to change anybody's preconceptions. My only real point is that having gotten away with something of questionable legality is no reason to assure someone else that THEY won't have a problem.
__________________
2013 Can-Am Spyder RS-S SM5 1977 Bultaco custom roadster 1974 Honda CL125S
Tanshanomi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 10:00 PM   #22
TUCKERS
the famous james
 
TUCKERS's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Villa Maria Sanitarium, Claremont, CA.
Oddometer: 11,615
Well if we are talking about 'sure things'....death and taxes

You can have an illegal vehicle any day of the week. Bulbs blow, license plate lights fail, tires wear out, smog equipment fails, mufflers fall off, seat belts malfunction any number of maladies can render you 'illegal' without even trying.

Useless argument..unsubscribed....bye...
__________________
James and Colleen Tucker.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
DMV work/insurance/registration/titles/address use/room rental/motorbike&vehicle buying/travelers help/problems solved
TUCKERS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 05:50 PM   #23
jbcaddy
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Oroville & Placerville, California U.S.of A.
Oddometer: 1,203
for the doubters, a VW buggy like a Manx and the many clones still has the VIN in its original location, it is not modified, moved, defaced and on and on. they are still called VW's on the still legal title.

On my 47 Williys Jeep pickup, the VIN is under the drivers seat. different frame, motor, transmission, rear end and bed, but still the same as far as the Calif DMV is concerned.
jbcaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 07:17 PM   #24
bk brkr baker
Beastly Adventurer
 
bk brkr baker's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: The Bluegrass
Oddometer: 5,461




RUKO makes one with tandem seating.
__________________
RR's Catnip Hill to Peoria ___Loopin' Seattle to WestFest
It started with some beers __1500 miles to the Dentist
Skeedaddle to Seattle______ A 30 year old on a Three Flags Run
bk brkr baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 07:19 PM   #25
panhead_dan
motorcycle addict
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Hermiston, Oregon
Oddometer: 753
If you want a racing trike, do you want one that could actually win a trike race?

If so, stop trying to make a bike into a trike. It adds weight to the bike, making it less competitive.
Instead start with a car. You will be removing weight from the car to make in into a racing trike. This will lead to a more race-like power to weight ratio, better brakes and suspension for a trike and save a ton of money in the process.
__________________
Think
Love
Live
panhead_dan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014