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Old 11-13-2012, 09:24 PM   #5611
Hedge36
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Originally Posted by Vagabond_Explorer View Post
Each year I am a guest lecturer at a public school, teaching their Y12 Engineering students helicopter aerodynamics. The principal is keen to get an un-flyable real helicopter (say a timex machine or an accident write off) as a teaching aid for its students and to inspire them into perhaps becoming engineers or pilots. When the Navy decided its $1.2bn cost over-run for its Seasprite fleet was unacceptable, I helped him write a letter to the Chief of Defence Force, offering $750 (that was all we could raise) for one its Seasprites that they were scrapping anyway.

Not surprising they ignored our many follow-up calls - perhaps they were embarrassed by the sheer waste of taxpayers' dollars that went into that small fleet??
So where the hell are all those airframes? Shrinkwrapped in a dusty warehouse somewhere, or were they returned to Kaman on paper?
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:53 PM   #5612
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So where the hell are all those airframes? Shrinkwrapped in a dusty warehouse somewhere, or were they returned to Kaman on paper?
I think Kaman still has them and actively try to make a sale.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:36 AM   #5613
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Im back

Hello All, Im back and addicted again. Dont know why I stopped viewing ADVrider, I did trade my moto for a mtb for a while. I think Im cured of that, looiing for a new ride.

Spent hours today at work looking at post. Lots of cool pics!

Wierdo: Its hot in Africa today can you send some cold rain.....

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Old 11-14-2012, 09:53 AM   #5614
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Wierdo: Its hot in Africa today can you send some cold rain.....

Rotorboy

Yeah, I think I can help you out:




Wecome back dude. Good talking to you the other week. Bit hard with the connection but sitll good.


Pretty slow around here these days. The 212 has the sixpac out of her and I brought the 105 home sick yesterday so we have no toys to play with.

Might be time to go for a coffee.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:43 PM   #5615
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So where the hell are all those airframes? Shrinkwrapped in a dusty warehouse somewhere, or were they returned to Kaman on paper?
I understand New Zealand has lined up to buy them. Apparently we don't care that the avionics box takes up so much room in the cockpit that the joysticks (or whatever they call them in helicopters) are limited in movement.

We also haven't learned that the existing Seasprites we have are hopeless, impossible to maintain in an airworthy state, and the spares are no longer being built.

It seems like it takes our Gummint a touch longer to learn its lesson (we have a recent history of catastrophic cock-ups with defence purchasing.

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Old 11-14-2012, 04:48 PM   #5616
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I understand New Zealand has lined up to buy them. Apparently we don't care that the avionics box takes up so much room in the cockpit that the joysticks (or whatever they call them in helicopters) are limited in movement.

We also haven't learned that the existing Seasprites we have are hopeless, impossible to maintain in an airworthy state, and the spares are no longer being built.

It seems like it takes our Gummint a touch longer to learn its lesson (we have a recent history of catastrophic cock-ups with defence purchasing.

The problem isn't the airframe. The problem was that the AUS government specified capabilities that the airframe was never designed to support. Strip out a bunch of extraneous guff and you've got a pretty solid ASW/SAR platform that'll fit on your frigates just fine.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:04 PM   #5617
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The problem isn't the airframe. The problem was that the AUS government specified capabilities that the airframe was never designed to support. Strip out a bunch of extraneous guff and you've got a pretty solid ASW/SAR platform that'll fit on your frigates just fine.
This discussion reminds me of the Collins class submarine debacle.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:08 PM   #5618
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To answer your 2 questions, "Many rich folks in Australia" and "NSW". Relatively speaking, helicopters here have never been cheaper. AUD has now substantially appreciated against the USD by over 100% over the past 10 years. I remember when 47 cents US bought 1 AUD. World-wide slow down causing prices of helos to fall. Manufacturers finding it harder to eye gouge governments because strangely, they now want value for money.
I'm guessing it must live at Bankstown. Even with the better exchange rate, it would still be a very expensive ride. Its nice to see one in our part of the world.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:46 PM   #5619
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Originally Posted by Hedge36 View Post
The problem isn't the airframe. The problem was that the AUS government specified capabilities that the airframe was never designed to support. Strip out a bunch of extraneous guff and you've got a pretty solid ASW/SAR platform that'll fit on your frigates just fine.
It seems to happen not just to these Kaman either....

Off topic
As for the Collins class submarines, yes, not good press, but us Aussies have 'sunk' a fair few USN ships in wargames. The common problem with the submarines I hear is the crew levels and also the dockyard person numbers - they just dont have enough people.

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Old 11-14-2012, 08:14 PM   #5620
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Originally Posted by Hedge36 View Post
The problem isn't the airframe. The problem was that the AUS government specified capabilities that the airframe was never designed to support. Strip out a bunch of extraneous guff and you've got a pretty solid ASW/SAR platform that'll fit on your frigates just fine.
That is of course, true. Confusion between blue water and grey water ops and loading the chopper up so much it can only fly with 1 pilot and 1 crew member + less than one hour's fuel, I have heard.

Here's the anomaly. A crooked NSW politician is now being dragged through the hot coals of corruption enquiries, prosecution, embarrassment and probably will end up in jail and bankrupted for corruptly obtaining a mere $100m advantage illegally. Our citizens are up in arms about it!

HOWEVER, our Defence Procurement and Defence Material Organisation (DMO) has cost overruns of over $100bn over the Seasprite Helicopters, MRH, Frigates Upgrades etc and so on but practically no citizen cares?! You can read the ANAO reports about it in their annual report or there are two examples of wastage documented here.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-w...0308-psw6.html

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2908434.htm
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:27 PM   #5621
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Ouch. I'm just reading up on the Collins boat mess... seems your government runs procurement about as well as our does

Though we really shouldn't derail this fine thread with such nonsense...
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:24 PM   #5622
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Strip out a bunch of extraneous guff and you've got a pretty solid ASW/SAR platform that'll fit on your frigates just fine.
They fit, but are they fit?

The maintenance and vibration issues have reduced the operational capabilities of the existing Seasprites to a level that is under what is acceptable to the Navy. That's why they are buying more - so even with the operational hours reduced to something like half what they were expected to do, the Navy will be able to have a fleet that meets its needs (simply be more than doubling the number of aricraft). Until they need spare parts of course, then they're screwed.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:42 PM   #5623
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They fit, but are they fit?

The maintenance and vibration issues have reduced the operational capabilities of the existing Seasprites to a level that is under what is acceptable to the Navy. That's why they are buying more - so even with the operational hours reduced to something like half what they were expected to do, the Navy will be able to have a fleet that meets its needs (simply be more than doubling the number of aricraft). Until they need spare parts of course, then they're screwed.
Am I following this logic correctly? The ones we have don't work properly.....so lets buy more???
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:54 PM   #5624
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Ouch. I'm just reading up on the Collins boat mess... seems your government runs procurement about as well as our does

Though we really shouldn't derail this fine thread with such nonsense...
Mate, thats not even the half of it. The clauses and fine print in the contract were/are incredible. The suppliers did not want to be seen in a bad light in any way, so they included clauses that involved penalties if anyone said anything negative about any aspect of the procurement, operation, etc...

Simply put, the suppliers had some very good legal types draft the contracts, the Navy had senior officers that absolutely knew what they were doing. just ask them.

I am currently reading Skunk Works by Ben Rich. He quotes one of Kelly Johnson's unwritten rules - "Starve before doing business with the Navy. They don't know what in hell they want and will drive you up the wall before they break either your heart or a more exposed part of your anatomy".
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:07 PM   #5625
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Am I following this logic correctly? The ones we have don't work properly.....so lets buy more???
I think you have the picture.

I'm just glad this is a helicopter thread so I don't have to tell you about the Army's Light Armoured Vehicle debacle or the cock-up that is HMNZS Canterbury, our "flagship."

Anyone want a multi-role vessel that has the alcoves for the ship's boats too close to the waterline, the result of a little glitch in the tank testing
?
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