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Old 11-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #796
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I set up a GP8 course this evening on asphalt and was riding it for a while.

I didn't quite have a proper course as I was using low cones, and had the course laid out in yards(so a little tighter), and was running an extra lap.

This was my first time trying the GP8, and didn't realize how small it is. It is tons of fun, and I was impressed by how much grip I had available.

I'll have to time it and see how I am doing.

I also had setup a cone weave with about 1 foot tall cones 3 yards apart. That turned out to be very challenging. By the end, I was making clean runs at the cone weave without knocking any cones down.

I noticed an unexpected side effect of the gymkhana practice. Once I finished the practice, I did a few wheelies. Post practice, I was getting the wheelies to the balance point easier than usual, and staying there longer.

Funny how skills practice carries over to general improvements.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:00 AM   #797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuggets View Post
I set up a GP8 course this evening on asphalt and was riding it for a while.

I didn't quite have a proper course as I was using low cones, and had the course laid out in yards(so a little tighter), and was running an extra lap.

This was my first time trying the GP8, and didn't realize how small it is. It is tons of fun, and I was impressed by how much grip I had available.

I'll have to time it and see how I am doing.

I also had setup a cone weave with about 1 foot tall cones 3 yards apart. That turned out to be very challenging. By the end, I was making clean runs at the cone weave without knocking any cones down.

I noticed an unexpected side effect of the gymkhana practice. Once I finished the practice, I did a few wheelies. Post practice, I was getting the wheelies to the balance point easier than usual, and staying there longer.

Funny how skills practice carries over to general improvements.
I had my first "proper" run in ages on Sunday, 100 km's of twisty goodness. Twice. I relished how in control I felt stringing the bends together, the bike felt weightless. Braking, ahem, hard for corners was an exercise in moderation, braking quite hard I knew that I could brake a lot harder. I also found myself using the back brake a lot more to stabilise the bike & scrub off speed into a corner.
I've realised you can learn a lot in a car park.
Thing is, I can't pop a wheelie to save my life. I can loop a bike, though. Rear mudguards quake in my presence.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:28 AM   #798
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[QUOTE][I've realised you can learn a lot in a car park.
/QUOTE]

That's the whole idea! You can learn far more in a car park than you ever can out on the road as you could never find a stretch of road that strung 50 corners together in the space of two minutes. Out on the road you rarely need to use the brakes as hard as you do on a Moto Gymkhana course, you never have to bank as quickly or as much or keep as close to the edge of tyre grip.

After Moto Gymkhana, controlling your bike on the road becomes real easy and if I had my way, every road rider should be encouraged to take part.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:08 AM   #799
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[QUOTE=Motogymkhanaman;20075069]
Quote:
[I've realised you can learn a lot in a car park.
/QUOTE]

That's the whole idea! You can learn far more in a car park than you ever can out on the road as you could never find a stretch of road that strung 50 corners together in the space of two minutes. Out on the road you rarely need to use the brakes as hard as you do on a Moto Gymkhana course, you never have to bank as quickly or as much or keep as close to the edge of tyre grip.

After Moto Gymkhana, controlling your bike on the road becomes real easy and if I had my way, every road rider should be encouraged to take part.
Amen to that brother, i always do it when i need. Confidence after a scare

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Old 11-19-2012, 09:27 AM   #800
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Thing is, I can't pop a wheelie to save my life. I can loop a bike, though. Rear mudguards quake in my presence.
Bikes like yours and mine aren't really made for popping wheelies. Or at least, I don't *think* the TDM is; I *KNOW* my Wee-Strom isn't Unless you've altered the gearing for a lot more torque, the only way to pop a wheelie on a relatively heavy, relatively low powered bike like most ADV bikes is to rev the engine a bit and dump the clutch. On the other hand, with a modern sport bike, all you have to do is roll on enough throttle in low gear and the front wheel will come up without dumping the clutch, since most of them are massively over-powered.

I've managed to smoothly get the front tire off the ground once or twice on my Wee -- including one absolutely beautiful wheelie on my way to work one morning when a stoplight turned green exactly as I was releasing the clutch while downshifting and preparing to stop (I rolled on full throttle from around 5K RPM just as I dropped the clutch out of the friction zone) -- but it only took a couple of attempts to convince myself that intentionally trying to wheelie the Strom is a good way to embarrass yourself in public
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:40 AM   #801
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An old timer once told me that it wasn't launching a wheelie that was so much of a problem, it's landing it that counts!

The key to a good wheelie is accelerating at a rate over 1'G' and so long as that is maintained the front will continue to paw the air. Of course a wheelie is as welcome as a thunderstorm at a picnic on a Moto Gymkhana course as it means that all that energy is being wasted picking the front up when it could be driving the bike forward.

Maintaining acceleration at or just below 1'G' is the mark of a true pro and that is why you see them move their upper body weight well forward during the acceleration phase. This moves the entire CofG forward enough to keep the front wheel on the ground. A common mistake (I have made it) is to grab a handful of front brake whilst there is little or no weight on the front wheel which makes the wheel lock almost immediately. Keeping enough weight over the front means that the transition between accelerating and braking can be made as short as possible.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:54 AM   #802
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Of course a wheelie is as welcome as a thunderstorm at a picnic on a Moto Gymkhana course as it means that all that energy is being wasted picking the front up when it could be driving the bike forward...Maintaining acceleration at or just below 1'G' is the mark of a true pro and that is why you see them move their upper body weight well forward during the acceleration phase. This moves the entire CofG forward enough to keep the front wheel on the ground. A common mistake (I have made it) is to grab a handful of front brake whilst there is little or no weight on the front wheel which makes the wheel lock almost immediately. Keeping enough weight over the front means that the transition between accelerating and braking can be made as short as possible.
Yep -- when doing gymkhana, you want to keep the wheels on the ground. Having said that, you can't deny that this guy's got some mad skills:

http://youtu.be/7a9VG4N5DfY

...and then, there are these guys:

http://youtu.be/_zPNQAZMVOA

IMHO, all of them are awesome -- it's a matter of learning when it is appropriate to use which skill set rather than which sub-category of motorcycling is "best" :)
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:06 AM   #803
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Wheelie max on throttle. Give it revs. Off throttle. Drop below power curve. The lean back and gas it. With foot on rear break but No clutch required. The transitoon between weight ballance front to rear pops it up. Ive done it a few times.

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Old 11-19-2012, 11:49 AM   #804
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I surprised myself with a wheelie on my DRZ. It wasn't really a wheelie, the front sort of just hovered a little above the ground, I realized that it was off the ground only after the touchdown and a slight jolt. It was pretty cool ! Don't think I managed it ever again though. It happened during one of my GP8 practices.

I see small power wheelies all the time in Gymkhana, a lot of riders grab a handful of throttle before a straight and it pops the wheel up a bit. Pretty cool. I've seen a number of stopies as well.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:57 AM   #805
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I see small power wheelies all the time in Gymkhana, a lot of riders grab a handful of throttle before a straight and it pops the wheel up a bit.
I would think that would be pretty common with hard acceleration on small, torquey, lightweight bikes with huge rear sprockets like you see in the YouTube videos of the gymkhana competitions. As Motor-G-man said, good riders will be shifting their weight around to move the C.G. forward and reduce the tendency of the front wheel to lift under power, but with enough throttle and/or appropriate gearing, the rider's weight might not be enough to keep the front tire planted.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:46 PM   #806
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Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
An old timer once told me that it wasn't launching a wheelie that was so much of a problem, it's landing it that counts!

Yup, that's what gets me either the horrendous crash of putting the front down too hard or landing the on the handle bars. The DT wheelies like a trials bike but I just don't have the confidence to really hoist it. A wee float over an obstacle is one thing, getting it up to the balance point & holding it totally another.

A common mistake (I have made it) is to grab a handful of front brake whilst there is little or no weight on the front wheel which makes the wheel lock almost immediately.
Oh good, I've done that too.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:44 PM   #807
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Oh my. Who knew mentioning wheelie would get everyone going like this. I think it is because this thread is full of bikers who relish improving skills, and holding a wheelie at balance point exceeds the skill envelope for most(I can't hold it for long).

So, I have thought about it a little more, and I think I understand why I was doing better wheelies after doing some gymkhana. I think it is just the way gymkhana rewards coordination of control inputs with better time. You have to do clutch, front brake, back brake, throttle turn, and balance all together in order to do well. A wheelie responds well to the same concept of coordination of controls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet View Post

Yup, that's what gets me either the horrendous crash of putting the front down too hard or landing the on the handle bars. The DT wheelies like a trials bike but I just don't have the confidence to really hoist it. A wee float over an obstacle is one thing, getting it up to the balance point & holding it totally another.
Always land the wheelie on the throttle. Let the front start coming down, and get back on the gas. Keep trying, it is stupid fun, and the skills you build are really useful.

Now if only I could find someplace to practice them without the wrong kind of attention.

Since we are on this topic, here are a couple of videos I have found useful for wheelie learning.

Ryan young trilas training video (wheelie)


http://youtu.be/iUFVlKF0XXY

01 The Wheelie - Explained

http://youtu.be/wEC8dw06WuY

Now back to your regularly scheduled MotoGymkhana thread...
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:09 PM   #808
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nuggets: thank you so much for posting those links, especially the "Offroad fanatic" one. They have really short and sweet explanations for all of their videos.

Browsing through their upload library, I stumbled on this one.



What caught my attention is the "outside elbow" up. I wonder if this will help in Gymkhana as well, as I sometimes struggle with uneven pressure from my hands in a full lock turn. I can feel my hands struggling with each other, both pushing opposit ways, making the run really awkward and stiff, and not being able to hit a full lock.

So in continuation of this, can we talk about body position in Gymkhana riding?

I know for acceleration and deceleration you move your body forward/back to compensate for G-load, to keep wheels on the ground, as well as keep load off the hands and bars.

For fast turns, butt stays in the seat for the turns, and we move our torso on the inside to offset the COG.

For slow turns, we lean to the outside to counterbalance the weight of the bike leaned into the turn.

I also remember somebody commenting that twisting shoulders and even hips into the turn, helps them turn faster.

Another thing I've heard about, is running a course with just one hand. Yes running the course with just right hand on the bars for throttle and brake, and no left hand. One, teaches us to proper use of brakes, rather than clutch to control our speed. Two, full control of the bike, as the hands are not battling each other, canceling pressure and therefor control of the bars. Lee Parks talks about this too, controlling the bike in the turn with just one hand. Obviously not taking the other off, but applying all the necessary pressure and corrections throughout the turn with just one hand.

Head is also something we constantly talk about, look where you want to turn. However I see different approaches to that too, on some Gymkhana riders. Some look where they want to go, some snap their heads at the last moment. Some even look the other way.



So can we get a discussion going on theories of best body positioning on the bike for slow and tight turns, such as Figure 8. I mean EVERYTHING, feet on pegs, knees, hips, torso, elbows, shoulder, neck, head.





.

Vulfy screwed with this post 11-20-2012 at 12:15 PM
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:53 PM   #809
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One handed eh? When I was taught the evasion maneuver I ended up having to do it with one hand, the other held up the air to avoid cheating... The maneuver is jinking hard left or right to avoid a collision & immediately swerving back into lane, bit like a slalom.
Initially using one hand was really hard because to counter steer you have to PULL the bar as well as push which leads to opening up the throttle, quite startling!!! This then led too weighting the footrests for a faster, smoother turn. Noticeably quicker regardless of what Keith Code says.
To do it you have to be loose on the bike & move your body weight into the turn to weight the inside foot rests alternately, quite a work out.

One of the main reasons I binned the DT recently was having my body weight too much into the turn rather than leaning out to counter balance the bike. I was being aggressive, weight forward & into the turn. Rigid with determination you could say. Or leading with my face.. Unlike the guy in the vid on the 1600 BMW, that's where I should have been......

Vulfy, I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your question. Apart from actually using the bike controls which is hard enough, trying to move smoothly around the bike is bloody hard as the speed creeps up. Trying to co-ordinate the whole lot properly is still a long way off for me.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:07 PM   #810
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regardless of what Keith Code says.
Well in defense of that, I think he was just proving a point that counter-steering should be the main technique to steer the bike. Body position and weighting, definitely play a part in steering, but they are an addition to counter-steering. As "The twist of the wrist" is a beginner / intermediate riding book/movie, I think he just wants to get the point across that you should use the handle bars to steer your bike, not foot pegs. Aaaanyways....

Back to MotoGymkhana and body positioning on the bike.
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