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Old 07-07-2012, 12:32 PM   #16
pfb
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A few questions...

Application:
  • 2010 KTM 450 XCW.
  • Electric start, plus kick start.
  • Full DC conversion (All stator output is rectified and regulated instead of the split AC lighting / DC charging system that comes OEM)
  • OEM battery is an YTX5L-BS, frequently upgraded to a YTZ7S

Questions:
  • What size are the terminal posts/bolts the 'small case' batteries? Every picture I've seen just shows the plastic coated wing-nut on the top. 6mm bolt size?

  • 4-cell vs. 8-cell? I'm leaning towards a 4-cell for size/weight/cost reasons. The 450 will kick-start and run fine with no battery at all, so being stranded in the middle of nowhere isn't a huge concern. Nor is very cold weather performance, as the bike isn't going to see much action below freezing. Stator easily delivers more power when running than being consumed, so I'm not worried about drain while riding. My only real concern is simply not enough juice to start the bike consistently on the first/second/maybe third try in normal use, and prematurely killing the battery.

  • How sensitive is the battery to excessive depletion (you list 10.5v as the do-not-go-below voltage on your web site)? What would be the result if somebody continued to try and use the electric start till it simply cranked too slowly for any hope of a start? What about if I accidentally left the lights on till full depletion? Is the battery then 100% toast? Or might it come back with stator charging with some (hopefully minor) reduced capacity?
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950 Adventure 950 Super Enduro 450 XC-W Six Days

pfb screwed with this post 07-07-2012 at 12:56 PM
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
the 720 cranking amp model is coming out in about 4-weeks...
Are you still on schedule for this?

What will be its dimensions?


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Old 07-07-2012, 02:14 PM   #18
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A few questions... [B]I answer in BOLD underline[/B]

Full DC conversion (All stator output is rectified and regulated instead of the split AC lighting / DC charging system that comes OEM)
Sorry I'm not familiar with this... but I assume someone like Baja Designs does it? So I would assume (hopefully correctly) that all would be fine with the stock charging system circuitry because there should be no reason to change they charging that is supplied to the battery. If it will in fact charge the same as the stock system then it will be fine for our Lithium.

]Questions:[*]What size are the terminal posts/bolts the 'small case' batteries? Every picture I've seen just shows the plastic coated wing-nut on the top. 6mm bolt size?
The Size is M6 but all the "Small Case" batteries come with the plastic wing nut AND a regular 6Mx10mm regular hex head flange bolt so you can use whichever one works the best for you. In addition all the small case batteries come with adhesive backed foam in the retail box..... BUT keep in mind that we make the exact YTZ7S case with our lithium packs inside too. Either a 4-cell or 8-cell, which means a direct drop in fit if you choose to use our OEM size case for the YTZ7

4-cell vs. 8-cell? I'm leaning towards a 4-cell for size/weight/cost reasons. The 450 will kick-start and run fine with no battery at all, so being stranded in the middle of nowhere isn't a huge concern. Nor is very cold weather performance, as the bike isn't going to see much action below freezing. Stator easily delivers more power when running than being consumed, so I'm not worried about drain while riding. My only real concern is simply not enough juice to start the bike consistently on the first/second/maybe third try in normal use, and prematurely killing the battery.
]The 4-cell is quite a powerfull little battery it would turn over the 450 many times, but it is more effected by cold than a battery with HIGHER cranking amps. So the 8-Cell would be a better bet if you ride in the cold more often. Additionally the 4-Cell is a tiny battery and though powerful enough to easily start the 450 it is still not the best if you have trail side emergencies like water logging your bike, or flooding it and have a problem the will require 10 repeated start attempts... so for that reason if you do MX or Race the 4-cell is great... if you expect to do longer loops, ride way out an be stuck in positions where you may need to do an "in gear" start the 8-Cell is a better choice... It is literally twice the power of the stock YTZ7 lead/acid and our 4-Cell. My four cell can start my WR many many times in a row but I'm out in Calif and do shorter loops and like you have the back up kick starter so I'm not to worried about trailside emergencies


How sensitive is the battery to excessive depletion (you list 10.5v as the do-not-go-below voltage on your web site)? What would be the result if somebody continued to try and use the electric start till it simply cranked too slowly for any hope of a start? What about if I accidentally left the lights on till full depletion? Is the battery then 100% toast? Or might it come back with stator charging with some (hopefully minor) reduced capacity?

I'm going to answer this with alot of info just so anyone reading this can understand about batteries more...

1) ALL batteries have a minimum volatge they must be maintained at or the cells themselves will be damaged and that damage shows as the lack of ability to hold a charge and the loss of power. So when we say 10.5v is the bottom line it is a generalization BUT is in fact the approximate voltage that Lithium AND Lead/Acid batteries are damaged at. So this isn't a Lithium issue... its a battery issue pertaining to Lead/Acid as well as Lithium... So if you take any battery into the 10.5v range for a period of time like a day or so the cells will be damaged. With lead/acid it can appear that you bring it back to life by having a trickle charger on it, but the fact is the cells are damaged and that battery won't start the bike if off the charger and it will be done within a couple month... But lithium is much more sensitive and if you let it hang out in 10.5v it will be damaged and just no work well at all even after a charge. So it is more sensitive to SHOWING its damaged. Lithium just doesn't perform after severe damage. Lead performs right after coming off the charge but won't hold the charge.

2) You bring up the question "what if I am starting the battery multiple times and possibly bring it down to 10.5v" That CANNOT happen actually... The batteries made for 12v system actually only operate within a small voltage range.... A dead battery in not 0 volts... it is actually roughly around 11.5v and lower. At 11.5v most bikes or cars will only get the "click". To explain it more, a lithium battery's nominal voltage is 13.2 so that is where it sits (roughly) after be charged up to 14.4 then settling back down after a couple days...... And for a lead/acid nominal voltage is 12.8v. But both of these batteries will really only produce enough amperage to start vehicles when they have ABOVE 11.8~12v ( again I'm using rough number becuase it will vary with the bike). So your bike most likely won't even start if the battery is sitting at 11.5v so you cannot damage it by starting it to below 10.5v because it won't even start the bike... BUT if you have some other drain like leaving something on that takes the battery below the 10.5v range then you can damage the battery. Hope that made sense to you. It won't be over starting it that damages it but rather a drain like heated grips, or an alarm, or power commander, leaving lights on. This are thing people usually forget about and don't ride for a while and come back to dead and damaged battery. But also keep in mind this is the same thing with Lead/Acid if you drain it below 10.5 you will have ruined it also.


If you have any other question email me at info@antigravitybatteries.com
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm950se View Post
Are you still on schedule for this?

What will be its dimensions?


ktm950se
Yes we are producing them now... Dimension are 5-7/8 long " x 3 7/16 deep " x 5 1/8 tall"

This is a case format called the YTX12 by Yuasa.... so we call our battey the YTX12-24... both exact same case format/size but the lithium puts out 3x the power of the normal YTX12... The YTX12 is only the "names" for the standardized "case size" in the battery industry. So we put out this specific case format YTX12 in a 12-cell, 16-Cell , 20 Cell and 24-Cell lithium format. So since we offer different power level in the same size case a rider can choose for how they ride. The needs for a Sport rider are much different than an Adventure obviously...If you have any other questions let me know.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:00 PM   #20
pfb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
I answer in BOLD underline
...
If you have any other question email me at info@antigravitybatteries.com
Thanks... Your answers all make sense.

Yes, my full DC charging system is from Baja Designs. It eliminates the AC lighting circuit and routes all stator power through a full-wave reg/rect for more DC power.

It is good to know that the bike stop cranking well before the voltage drops into the 'damage zone'.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #21
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Thanks for the update!
I believe my KTM 950 Super Enduro's stock battery is a YTZ14S, which is listed on Yuasa's website as dimensionally 6" x 3 7/16" x 4 3/8" (150mm x 87mm x 110mm).
So if I understand correctly, your 720 amp battery would be about an 3/4" taller than my stock battery, correct?
While I'm not near my bike right now, I'm not sure I have an additional 3/4" space above the stock battery to fit a taller one.
Am I missing something, or does your website not list a YTZ14 sized battery I could use instead?


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Old 07-11-2012, 05:23 AM   #22
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm950se View Post
Thanks for the update!
I believe my KTM 950 Super Enduro's stock battery is a YTZ14S, which is listed on Yuasa's website as dimensionally 6" x 3 7/16" x 4 3/8" (150mm x 87mm x 110mm).
So if I understand correctly, your 720 amp battery would be about an 3/4" taller than my stock battery, correct?
While I'm not near my bike right now, I'm not sure I have an additional 3/4" space above the stock battery to fit a taller one.
Am I missing something, or does your website not list a YTZ14 sized battery I could use instead?
Hi, you are correct your bike specs a YTZ14...and our YTX-24 (720 CCa) would be about a 3/4" taller as you said...

So you understand, there are 3 size YTZ case formats from Yuasa (lead/acid) the YTZ 12 and YTZ14 are EXACTLY the same in all dimension and only vary by .2 Ah (2 tenths Ah) and 20 Cranking Amps ( per the Yuasa specs)... so they are the same basically. Then there is the YTZ10...and it is about 3/4" shorter but other wise exactly the same just shorter. So we use THAT Case format (YTZ10) because it can become the exact same as the YTZ12/14 by putting a foam spacer on the bottom of a YTZ10 to raise the hieght (which is in the retail box). And since we could not fit the 16-Cell into the YTZ14 Case anyway we stayed with the smaller case and offer that in a 12-Cell format 360 Cranking Amps because people can use the shorter height if they want or put the foam to get the original hieght....

So these are the facts when putting an Antigravity YTZ10-12Cell in your Adventure. A 12-Cell battery will easily start you bike MORE times in a row than the Lead/Acid counterpart YTZ14 and be about 7 pound lighter... BUT if you have extra accessories such as heated grips, or GPS and this stuff can run even with the ignition off you will have LESS capacity for longer term small-amp drains (like the bike sitting in a garage for months.....because the Lithium has MORE starting power and the ability to express higher amp discharges much better than lead/acid... BUT it will not have as much CAPACITY for long term low-amp drain (parasitic drains) because lead is a much bigger battery physically. BUT if you did go to the larger size Antigravity then it will uttery crush the lead in all areas beacuase it will be a bigger battery more equal in size to the Lead but still be 50% lighter and have more CAPACITY and literally 3 times the power of the same physical sized Lead/Acid battery. It would flip the bike very fast and would have barely any voltage drop.

So to answer your question... You are correct the larger YTX12 Case format we use for our larger batteries is exactly the same in length and width to your YTZ14... but it is 3/4" taller... So it probably won't fit unless you see you have the 3/4" available. You could also try our Small Case 16-Cell but it would have to be laid on its side... Which is fine for lithium but it not as pretty as a direct fit.

If you have any other questions let me know.

regards,
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:18 AM   #24
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Great info, thanks!
I'll take some measurements shortly to see if there's 3/4" more room above the stock battery to upgrade to the YTX-24 (720 CCa).

It sounds like the way to go!

Sincerely,

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Old 09-01-2012, 01:38 PM   #25
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Any plans for a larger capacity YTZ14?
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:47 PM   #26
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Hi Mooky,

We use the YTZ10 Case format for our version battery to replace the lead acid Yuasa YTZ-10 YTZ-12 and YTZ-14. The reason we can't make our Antigravity any larger is because a maximum 12-Cells only fit into any of those cases. So we chose the smaller YTZ 10 case format which is the most compact of them all yet still fits the 12-Cells...the only difference between all the cases mentioned is the height. S we can offer a more compact battery if needed yet produce more power than the larger models..... Also keep in mind the YTZ 14 though is may seem like it is a bigger battery than the YTZ10 or YTZ12 is actually only .2 (2/10ths) of an amp hour more than the YTZ12 and only has 20 more cranking amps at 230 Cranking amps compared to the 210 of the YTZ-12. The YTZ12 and YTZ14 are basically the same battery being that 20 Cranking amps and .2 amp hours really aren't of any benefit and they are the exact same size.

Last, our battery is 360 cranking amps and has12Ah (PbEq rating) and will be much more powerful than even the YTZ14, and start the bike more times in a row with higher voltage and faster motor spin... BUT the YTZ14 Lead/Acid would actually last longer sitting in a garage with a mild parasitc drain using the batteries energy.... This is because the lithium battery has much more front loaded power in a smaller package and the lead is a denser brick that can hold more capacity... but that capacity is not effective at high amp draws like starting... So that is the trade off.

If you have any other questions let me know. Best is to email scott@antigravitybatteries... some time I don't get notifications from this thread.

Regards,
Scott-
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:32 PM   #27
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My new 8-cell is FANTASTIC!

I just bought one of these for my 2010 KTM 450 XCW Six Days - my dream bike.

(Build thread, here: http://ridedualsport.com/forum/index.php?topic=1086.0)

The stock lead-acid battery lasted until a week ago, and went Tango-Uniform with no notice. Since I'm gearing up for more riding and further shenanigans in Nevada next month, I thought it might be nice to have a battery, even though Casper the Friendly Punkin kicks and starts smoothly. Who wants to kick-start a motorcycle anymore?

(Ride announcement here: http://ridedualsport.com/forum/index.php?topic=2881.0)

Anyway, this item has been on my list of things to get to upgrade my bike, but I just hadn't done it. A dead stock battery is a powerful motivation for somebody who likes to ride. I received this 8-cell unit right away quick and it practically floated out of my driveway from the UPS drop box - it's so light! And the bike NEVER started so quickly or easily, such was the immediate boost in cranking amps. "Casper" has almost 8,500 miles in him... still starts and runs like a raped ape, but the difference in batteries was noticeable immediately.

Should have gotten this a long time ago. The weight savings and performance increase are outstanding.

I got mine from Ironman Dualsport in California - Bob is one solid brother.

http://www.ironmandualsport.com/

Thanks Antigravity for an excellent battery. Far better than the older lithium ion offerings that were the only game in town a short while ago.

Rally on,

Stovey

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Old 10-11-2012, 02:00 AM   #28
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Ey up, just wondering which Antigravity battery is recommended for the Aprilia V4 Tuono ? We could do with a bit of space somewhere and these look just the job.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:40 AM   #29
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Ey up, just wondering which Antigravity battery is recommended for the Aprilia V4 Tuono ? We could do with a bit of space somewhere and these look just the job.
According to our books from Yuasa the Tuono V4 takes a YT12A-BS... This battery is the same physical case size as our YTZ10-12 model, but the our lithium will have quite a bit higher cranking amps and weigh 5-6 pounds less.

If you have any other questions feel free to drop us a line at info@antigravitybatteries.com.

Regards,
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:42 AM   #30
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Scott,

Do you make a drop in replacement for a BMW F800GS, and if so would I want 12 cell or 16 cell?
Couldn't find my bike on your website chart.

Gracias.
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