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Old 12-01-2012, 07:49 AM   #271
Wallachian Spikes
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My dream bike would be for Yamaha to build a D.S. bike around the 700 Raptor power plant with a six speed. I'd be just as happy if Honda built something similar.

I'd also be very excited about a 450 D.S. bike from any of the Japanese manufacturers. I know KTM has made their EXC line road legal but, I'd like something I didn't have to change the oil every 10 hours. A KLR 450 with a 6.1 gal. tank & 3,000 mile oil change intervals would be high up on my list.

Sorry for bringing up so many other brands in a Honda thread. I'm just not shackled to any one particular brand. Honda does make great bikes & if they build either of the two bikes I spoke of, I'd buy one with a quickness.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:53 AM   #272
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I don't understand...why would you want a KLR with even less power than it has now, but the same shitty suspension/brakes/over weight?
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:13 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by bobnoxious67 View Post
I don't understand...why would you want a KLR with even less power than it has now, but the same shitty suspension/brakes/over weight?
You must not realize that a KLR 650 makes LESS H.P. than todays 450s. Actually a modern 450 would make MORE power than the antiquated KLR 650. It would be lighter & have better brakes & suspension. The point would be to make the KLR that Kawasaki should have made when they "upgraded" it in '08.

As I said before, I'm not shackled to any one brand I just like that 6.1 gallon tank & a 450 would probably get at least 350 miles between fill ups. If Honda built it, it wouldn't be a KLR anyway it would be an XL,XR or CRF. I like Hondas, I've had good luck with them in the past & my son builds American cars for the Honda corperation in Ohio. If Honda builds it I will buy it but, if Suzuki, Kawasaki or Yamaha build it first......
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:50 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Wallachian Spikes View Post
You must not realize that a KLR 650 makes LESS H.P. than todays 450s. Actually a modern 450 would make MORE power than the antiquated KLR 650. It would be lighter & have better brakes & suspension. The point would be to make the KLR that Kawasaki should have made when they "upgraded" it in '08.

As I said before, I'm not shackled to any one brand I just like that 6.1 gallon tank & a 450 would probably get at least 350 miles between fill ups. If Honda built it, it wouldn't be a KLR anyway it would be an XL,XR or CRF. I like Hondas, I've had good luck with them in the past & my son builds American cars for the Honda corperation in Ohio. If Honda builds it I will buy it but, if Suzuki, Kawasaki or Yamaha build it first......
If course I know that KLR's don't make much power.

You must not realize that knowing Kawi can't manage decent power out of 650cc's/liquid cooled/twin cam...but thinking somehow they'll give you a 450 that makes more HP and gets nearly 60MPG is a fantasy

I have a 50hp 450. I get it...but thinking that this is some magic engine size that will magically do everything is ridiculous
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:32 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by guns_equal_freedom View Post
Global warming and cooling trends come and go, give me 500 years of empirical dataand then we can ralk.

Agreed....the Earth will do IT'S thing......we can't negotiate with nature or talk sense to Lib's.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:19 PM   #276
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I really like my CRF250L and plan to rack up some serious miles on it. In the near future 1-2 years I'm going to be looking for something a little more serious. I know there is no perfect bike. With the sales of the CRF250L being what they are I would imagine that Honda will be looking to build a bigger version in the future. The CRF250L has been a great seller so far due to the price vs performance. I would bet Honda would follow that same path for a bigger version. List what you would be looking for in a bigger bike let's say priced at 6,899.99.
I don't know about that price, but they should be competitive with the other asian marques.

CRF450L
- At least as light as a DR-Z400S.
- 6spd with ratios spaced like WR250R.
- Stout subframe.
- EFI, but simple.
- Gear-driven counter-balancer in a smooth motor with low-end torque and some revvability.
- Air/Oil cooling preferred, but liquid cooling will do.
- Roughly 45HP at the crank.
- Screw/locknut valve adjusts. Check every 10K+ miles.
- Option to add kicker with factory parts.
- Fully-adjustable suspension with at least 9" of travel.
- Simple tank design that can be upgraded to super-tanker capacity easily.
- 21/17 or 18.
- Seat-height 33" or less.
- Runs well on regular.
- Good stator output, and MOSFET reg/rect.
- Plastic skid.

CL250 Scrambler
- Simple standard.
- Based on Rebel/Nighthawk 250 twin motor/drivetrain...It's cheap to use, parts are everywhere, and it works.
- Roughly 300lb curb.
- Seat height like Nighthawk 250.
- Front and rear discs.
- 19" front and 17" or 18" rear.
- Optional ABS without linking.
- Optional oil cooler.
- EFI or carb is fine with me, but keep the carbing simple.
- 200+ -mile range.
- At least 5" travel.
- No chrome.
- Inexpensive.
- Optional tailrack.
- Optional flyscreen.
- Optional skid.

CL500 Scrambler
- Simple standard.
- 500cc twin
- Roughly 350lb curb.
- Seat height like CB500.
- Front and rear discs.
- 19" front and 17" or 18" rear.
- Optional ABS without linking.
- EFI or carb is fine.
- Optional oil cooler.
- 200+ -mile range.
- At least 5" travel.
- No chrome.
- Inexpensive.
- Same tailrack and flyscreen as fits CL250.
- Optional skid.


CB250X
- EFI, smooth, 250cc twin.
- Roughly 325lb curb.
- Roughly 25HP at crank.
- Tuned for mid-range.
- 80+ MPG, with 300+-mile range.
- Optional ABS without linking.
- 19" front/17" rear, tubeless.
- Seat height like Nighthawk 250.
- 5"+ travel.
- Inexpensive.
- Good stator output, and MOSFET Reg/Rect.
- Optional skid.

Kommando screwed with this post 12-02-2012 at 10:55 AM
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Old 12-01-2012, 06:01 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by frog13 View Post
Agreed....the Earth will do IT'S thing......we can't negotiate with nature or talk sense to Lib's.
The fuck does this have to do with the fact that Honda has not put out a decent enduro in a decade or more?

Or do you just care to spread your ignorance around to other areas of ADV?

Quote:
CRF450L
- At least as light as a DR-Z400S.
- 6spd with ratios spaced like WR250R.
- Stout subframe.
- EFI, but simple.
- Gear-driven counter-balancer in a smooth motor with low-end torque and some revvability.
- Air/Oil cooling preferred, but liquid cooling will do.
- Roughly 45HP at the crank.
- Screw/locknut valve adjusts. Check every 10K+ miles.
- Option to add kicker with factory parts.
- Fully-adjustable suspension with at least 9" of travel.
- Simple tank design that can be upgraded to super-tanker capacity easily.
- 21/17 or 18.
- Seat-height 33" or less.
- Runs well on regular.
- Good stator output, and MOSFET reg/rect.
- Plastic skid.
The parts in red are mutually exclusive of each other. Never happen in a Thumper. Twin? Maybe, but not a Thumper.

The part in blue is not bad, roughly 300lbs, but the problem with the DRZs weight is its balance. It suffers from what most other Japanese bikes do other than the WR250.....they are top-heavy, and thus it makes the entire bike feel heavier than its 300lbs. By contrast, a KTM weighs about 25lbs less, but rides much lighter due to weight placement and ergos.

Anyway, the list is moot. Way too expensive to produce with too little ROI. A Japanese company would never put out a bike like that.

In fact, other than the unrealistic valve check mileage, the first list describes most modern Euro Enduro bikes.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:43 PM   #278
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Let's all agree to disagree.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:00 AM   #279
Kommando
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Originally Posted by Off the grid View Post
The fuck does this have to do with the fact that Honda has not put out a decent enduro in a decade or more?

Or do you just care to spread your ignorance around to other areas of ADV?



The parts in red are mutually exclusive of each other. Never happen in a Thumper. Twin? Maybe, but not a Thumper.

The part in blue is not bad, roughly 300lbs, but the problem with the DRZs weight is its balance. It suffers from what most other Japanese bikes do other than the WR250.....they are top-heavy, and thus it makes the entire bike feel heavier than its 300lbs. By contrast, a KTM weighs about 25lbs less, but rides much lighter due to weight placement and ergos.

Anyway, the list is moot. Way too expensive to produce with too little ROI. A Japanese company would never put out a bike like that.

In fact, other than the unrealistic valve check mileage, the first list describes most modern Euro Enduro bikes.
There's always hope. Technology gets better and more affordable. Yamaha actually put out the WR250R/X, and that meets a lot of the engine specs...scaled down to 250cc at almost 100HP/L.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:20 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
There's always hope. Technology gets better and more affordable. Yamaha actually put out the WR250R/X, and that meets a lot of the engine specs...scaled down to 250cc at almost 100HP/L.
/agree

But Yamaha is the only company of the "big three" that have shown even a glimmer of "give a shit" in the enduro market in the last 10 years.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:31 PM   #281
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DS XR650R please

E button with a big fuel tank & I'm in. I don't think that's too much to ask. It's not like they've to re-think / re-design too much. Just make more of them and hurry up before I buy a Husky Terra. I even like the old school forks on the BRP but USD will please the masses. I like reliability when I look at bikes. Reliability = affordable, which is a good thing for most right now. The 650L is reliable, but come on, it's ancient. Honda can do better than that for its customers - can't they?

Edit: guess some good mounts for soft bags & maybe a rack would be ideal too.

OldManSandman screwed with this post 12-02-2012 at 03:38 PM Reason: Added a little
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:42 PM   #282
byron555
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CRF500L? budget adv bike?

The new CRF250L is doing well, why not release a twin cylinder version (new CB500x motor) in a similar chassis. Saves on development costs which keeps the MSRP down. Add a cush hub, sell it with a budget suspension that can be swapped easily with motocross units for those who want it.

Keep the MSRP in klr territory. Use the fairing off of the CB500x, or make it look similar to the new Dakar bike, and they would have the budget Adventure touring market. It would be a modern version of the original transalp. Keep it affordable, but designed with flexibility, optional ABS? maybe...
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:02 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by OldManSandman View Post
E button with a big fuel tank & I'm in. I don't think that's too much to ask. It's not like they've to re-think / re-design too much. Just make more of them and hurry up before I buy a Husky Terra. I even like the old school forks on the BRP but USD will please the masses. I like reliability when I look at bikes. Reliability = affordable, which is a good thing for most right now. The 650L is reliable, but come on, it's ancient. Honda can do better than that for its customers - can't they?

Edit: guess some good mounts for soft bags & maybe a rack would be ideal too.
E-button, lower seat, sturdy steel subframe w/passenger pegs, and wide-ratio tranny. They can skip the big tank as long as the aftermarket has it covered inexpensively. Can it get better than 40MPG?
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:21 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
E-button, lower seat, sturdy steel subframe w/passenger pegs, and wide-ratio tranny. They can skip the big tank as long as the aftermarket has it covered inexpensively. Can it get better than 40MPG?
The biggest hurdles of Japanese bikes is weight, suspension, brakes, ergos and transmissions. (terrible ratios)

I touched on it earlier in the thread, but the reason why you will never see a stock Japanese bike with a working suspension is that it's a pricey item and the first thing they skimp on. It's also one of the (many) things that makes Euro bikes so fooking brilliant and a bit more $$.

The same goes for weight. Japanese bikes have to be built to a certain price point, their Engineers do not get a blank canvas. Because of this, you get stamped steel pegs, steel bars, kickstand, generic brakes, standard forks, no-name suspension, etc. This adds up to a porker of a bike that is less money.

The things that Honda can improve is to make the riding position better....move the bars forward and drop the pegs a bit, lower the center of gravity a bit in their bikes, and for the love of God copy the WR250R trannys gear ratio for use in all their bikes. Hondas first and second gear are fooking terrible....first gear is practically unusable, and the jump to second is way too big. Narrow those ratios and add a 6th gear already!

Fixes like these would be doable for a price-conscious company like Honda and make a big difference.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:38 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Off the grid View Post
The biggest hurdles of Japanese bikes is weight, suspension, brakes, ergos and transmissions. (terrible ratios)

I touched on it earlier in the thread, but the reason why you will never see a stock Japanese bike with a working suspension is that it's a pricey item and the first thing they skimp on. It's also one of the (many) things that makes Euro bikes so fooking brilliant and a bit more $$.

The same goes for weight. Japanese bikes have to be built to a certain price point, their Engineers do not get a blank canvas. Because of this, you get stamped steel pegs, steel bars, kickstand, generic brakes, standard forks, no-name suspension, etc. This adds up to a porker of a bike that is less money.

The things that Honda can improve is to make the riding position better....move the bars forward and drop the pegs a bit, lower the center of gravity a bit in their bikes, and for the love of God copy the WR250R trannys gear ratio for use in all their bikes. Hondas first and second gear are fooking terrible....first gear is practically unusable, and the jump to second is way too big. Narrow those ratios and add a 6th gear already!

Fixes like these would be doable for a price-conscious company like Honda and make a big difference.
Some things are easy enough for the user to address, rather than having the mfr do it for a hefty premium. Not everybody wants a big/plastic tank for 200 or 400 miles of range, but it's frustrating for a mfr to come out with a distance-capable bike that checks a lot of boxes...except it has a tiny underseat tank that costs $1000 to really upgrade from. A DR650SE may be a pig offroad compared to a TE630, but 150 miles over stock range can be easily added to the DR for under $300, and 350 miles over stock isn't a whole lot more. Things like lighter pegs, better bars, better brakes, and comfier seats are similarly-easy to change. I don't understand people who decide against a bike for something easily improved, like a hard seat. $160 sent someplace like Seat Concepts, and less than an hour with a staplegun can change that. At the opposite end of upgrade ease are gearbox changes. The DR-Z is a perfect example of a bike that would work better for many more people simply if the gearspread was wider. This is something that Suzuki could easily and rather inexpensively do...much more so than the average consumer. Yet they never have. Something I think is also silly is that the DR650SE has a wide-ratio 5spd and the torque to pull the spread (even better with the low-rev manners of a TM40/FCR carb), and yet the DR's CS sprocket is MUCH easier to change at the trailhead than the DR-Z's. These kinds of things make little to no sense to the consumer.
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