Trading my KLR for a Burgman 400....another talk me out of it thread

[JerryH]

I also used to own an '81 or '82 Silverwing Interstate. I just don't understand why they don't make bikes like that anymore. Not just that one, but most of the great bikes they made back in the early 80s. Having ridden several maxi scooters lately, I was not impressed. A mid sized cruiser is just as comfortable, and easier to handle, especially in parking lots. And if you get one with a windshield and bags, you have wind protection and storage space. My Vulcan 750 seems to be a much better bike than the maxi scooters. Unfortunately they don't make them anymore, and mine is about worn out.

Valves can be a HUGE deal on a scooter. It's a 3 hour job on a little Honda PCX150. I got a Zuma 125 instead, because it is a 15 minute job. But if the Zuma turns out to be anything like my Vino 125, it has gone 25,000 miles with only one valve adjustment. But the thing is, you don't have to tear the whole scooter apart to check them. I consider this to be a design flaw (possibly done on purpose) on any scooter that requires it. More money for the dealer service department. I see no reason maxi scooters can't have hydraulic valves. Even the new Royal Enfields have hydraulic valves. They are not sport bikes. They already use the most inefficient drive system available (CVT)

[MarkH67]

Originally Posted by klaviator

From my experience, scooter tend to require maintenance more often than motorcycles and getting to things are complicated due to all the plastic. However, this varies from scooter to scooter as well as motorcycle to motorcycle.

Valve adjustments in particular can be very complicated on a scooter due to all the body work. Adjusting the valves on my KLR is easier than on my Sport City 250. This, despite the fact that the Sport City has Screw & Locknut adjusters and the KLR uses shims. Luckily, neither requires valve adjustments that often. On my Kymco on the other hand, Valve adjustments are very easy, but are required every 2500 miles. I have read that the valve adjustment on the Burgman 400 is very time consuming so you may want to look into that.

I've been on a Burgman 400 for about 4 years (2007 model) and have run up about 34,000 miles. I've never adjusted the valves yet.
Servicing has been incredibly easy so far - I'm only on the 2nd spark plug, mainly I change the oil & filter (pretty easy job) and get the bike shop to replace tyres. I did change the belt once, surprisingly easy with an air wrench. I've replaced rear brake pads (pretty easy) but am still on the original front pads.
My Burg 400 has been VERY reliable and has easily handled some long trips. I use it often as a city commuter and it does that job well too.

I have gone camping a few times:


TBH I load up with way more gear than I really need. It handles that gear & weight without any problem though and I haven't found gravel roads to be overly difficult to ride on.

[ArtCuisin]

Originally Posted by JerryH

I also used to own an '81 or '82 Silverwing Interstate. I just don't understand why they don't make bikes like that anymore. Not just that one, but most of the great bikes they made back in the early 80s. Having ridden several maxi scooters lately, I was not impressed. A mid sized cruiser is just as comfortable, and easier to handle, especially in parking lots. And if you get one with a windshield and bags, you have wind protection and storage space. My Vulcan 750 seems to be a much better bike than the maxi scooters. Unfortunately they don't make them anymore, and mine is about worn out.

Valves can be a HUGE deal on a scooter. It's a 3 hour job on a little Honda PCX150. I got a Zuma 125 instead, because it is a 15 minute job. But if the Zuma turns out to be anything like my Vino 125, it has gone 25,000 miles with only one valve adjustment. But the thing is, you don't have to tear the whole scooter apart to check them. I consider this to be a design flaw (possibly done on purpose) on any scooter that requires it. More money for the dealer service department. I see no reason maxi scooters can't have hydraulic valves. Even the new Royal Enfields have hydraulic valves. They are not sport bikes. They already use the most inefficient drive system available (CVT)

I think you are fond of comparing apples to oranges.

I for one just could not be seen on a cruiser. I'm afraid of guilt by association with the loud pipes,
fringe leather, Barney-Badass cloaked pile of obnoxious dorkdom.
I don't have a problem with the quiet, honest scooter dorkdom image at all. :)
In motorcycles, I have gravitated to the standard/naked ones with quiet, stock exhausts (with one exception
in my cheap, misguided youth.) They also need to corner at high lean angles at high speeds, something
no cruiser does as well, even the ones that do so better than other cruisers. You can't have it all?

If the manufacturers only produced two practical bike models, to please both of us, that would probably
leave them without many sales--few others would choose to buy them. Marketing people drive
the world.

I've ridden an old (CX-like) Silverwing. It buzzed a LOT, but it was old. I've chanced upon rides on bikes
of my youth (seventies, eighties) and they all were a lot nicer to look at than ride. I believe chassis smoothness,
engine smoothness, and handling have come a LONG way in 20+ years.

And scooters are easier to bathe! But they are not geared toward quick maintenance. Yes, I don't
know what the problem is with hydraulic valves, why manufacturers don't use them. I know some
have had issues, especially when faced with dirty oil. Maybe they don't like lives above 5K rpm or so?
I'm thinking of my 86 Goldwing. It rarely went above 5K and it had hydraulic valves. But don't
even Burgman 650s get ridden frequently above that? My Burgman 400 certainly does.

[redhandmoto]

Originally Posted by ArtCuisin

I I'm afraid of guilt by association with the loud pipes, fringe leather, Barney-Badass cloaked pile of obnoxious dorkdom.

heh heh heh...

Originally Posted by ArtCuisin

I think you are fond of comparing apples to oranges.

Oh, yeah; I've done that too.

Here's why - my apples-to-oranges thinking happens because I am always looking for a contradictory combination of attributes and components from completely different types of PTWs; striving to find one bike that will "do it all" - (in my case) a retro-styled, EFI, disc-braked, liquid-cooled, bench-seated scooter - well-sprung, rack-equipped, with great back support, relaxed riding position, highway-pegged, accomodating change of leg/body position, stable and gust-resistant at high speeds, perfect for slow threading and flicking through traffic in town traffic, under three hundred pounds. With fantastic mileage. and hydraulic valves.

In short, the perfect scoot - for me - would violate inviolable principle of engineering, physics, and manufacturing/market economics.

The closest I ever came was a Honda PS250 Big Ruckus, but only once it was amped with a JCosta variator, upjet, and JDM scoops for extra airflow at high speeds. I will not quote what it could do on the slab - people scoff and bad feelings ensue - but it would perform that way all day long for days on end. The down side was that it was way, way too muscular for the brakes. I didn't mind that it looked like a water heater laid on side.

Some current maxis approach my list of ideal attrubutes...but they all look like the great ocean-going mammals, and I hate that look. Retro-styled maxis - the larger BVs - in urban traffic cannot get out of their own way, are stodgy at low speeds and unhandy at traffic manuvers. The Vespa GTS 300ie Super... I had a 250 - those scoots hate passengers, the seats are intolerable, and no Italian bike can hope to have the box-o-rocks reliability of the Japanese/Taiwanese marques, nor the parts/infrastructure support. It means something that Honda is killing Vespa market share - in Italy.

We all seem to want bikes that combine things in a way that can't be had - wherefore apples-oranges-bananas, pears...

[JerryH]

None of my cruisers have had fringe or loud pipes, though many cruiser riders go that direction, you don't have to. Most of them have been set up as touring bikes with saddlebags, a windshield, and a riders backrest. I also don't like the looks of a lot of the newer cruisers which try to copy Harley. But I don't ride cruisers for the way they look. I ride them for their comfort and practicality. A cruiser can be set up almost like a Goldwing. I have had 2 Goldwings, an '85 1200 LTD, and currently have a '95 1500 Aspencade. It is also a very comfortable bike, but sometimes more bike than I want. I had planned to trade it for a maxi scooter, but after trying out several, I decided to either keep it, or sell it outright. I didn't see the maxi scooter as an improvement. I guess I just like my scooters small. The Vulcan 750 comes in a very close second comfortwise to the GW and has about the same performance, and actually handles better. The Vulcan with hydraulic valves has a 9500 rpm redline. I have owned 2 of them, a '93 and my current '02. Between the two, I have almost 160,000 miles on them, and have never had any issues with the valves. They have been ridden mostly on the highway, at 75-80 mph.

I'm beginning to think that what the OP really needs is a midsized touring cruiser, like the Yamaha V-Star 950 tourer. It is in the same price range as the Burg 400, and IMO more comfortable, and with better performance. I finally went down to the stealer and sat on one after this came up in another thread. I found it to be extremely comfortable, and with a riders backrest, it would be about as comfortable as driving a car. It comes with really nice bags that have more storage capacity than the Burg, plus you can use a tank bag and a T-Bag, which attaches to the passengers backrest. It has a very low seat height, and if you wanted to mess up such a beautiful bike, it should do a lot better on dirt and gravel roads than a maxi, it has more ground clearance, better suspension, and full sized wheels. It is belt drive, and the valves are super easy to get to. And, it comes with quiet pipes and no fringe, and I recommend leaving it that way.

[redhandmoto]

naw. the OP wants a Burgie. He'll love it!

[doogiepooch]

Originally Posted by JerryH

I'm beginning to think that what the OP really needs is a midsized touring cruiser, like the Yamaha V-Star 950 tourer. It is in the same price range as the Burg 400, and IMO more comfortable, and with better performance. I finally went down to the stealer and sat on one after this came up in another thread. I found it to be extremely comfortable, and with a riders backrest, it would be about as comfortable as driving a car. It comes with really nice bags that have more storage capacity than the Burg, plus you can use a tank bag and a T-Bag, which attaches to the passengers backrest. It has a very low seat height, and if you wanted to mess up such a beautiful bike, it should do a lot better on dirt and gravel roads than a maxi, it has more ground clearance, better suspension, and full sized wheels. It is belt drive, and the valves are super easy to get to. And, it comes with quiet pipes and no fringe, and I recommend leaving it that way.

Wrong. I don't do cruisers. Hate the handling. I might be looking for a comfy tourer but I still enjoy a twistie road. Cruisers just don't handly well. TIght twisties on a curiser is like wallowing a piano up a fire excape. And I will say I'm uncertain how the maxi riding position is going to feel after a few hours. I need to hook up with a local forum memmber who has a maxi. A few guys have read that gravel road thing to closely. I was trying to say I really care nothing about offroading, I don't use my KLR offroad and cetainly woulndn't take a scooter offroad or really even down a dirt road. A more accomplished dirt rider can do alot with a KLR offroad but me, the weght of it in a tight spot make it like......well......trying to wallow a piano up a fire escape. The thing that tickels me to death about the storage on the Burgman is that you can be carrying a ton of stuff but no-one knows it. It's all hidden under the seat, no bike no matter how cool the hard luggage can't do that.

Originally Posted by redhandmoto

naw. the OP wants a Burgie. He'll love it!

Yep, basically this is it. Mind was already pretty made up when I started this thread, I just wanted to hear all the opinons/angles incase there was an angle I hadn't thought about. So far I haven't really been surprised or seen anything making me want to vary my path. While I haven't had double digit numbers of bikes I think I've had bikes in all the major categories. Dual sport check, super sport check, cruiser check (spent enough time on my dads to know I don't like them). after all these pages.....I still want a 400 Burg.

[scootermann]

Sorry, I'm lazy and didn't read this entire thread. Wondered if you have considered the Yamaha Majesty? A great 400. I only slightly tweaked mine by adding Dr. Pulley 14gr sliders (stock are 15) and the acceleration difference is noticeable. Ride in the NC mountains 2-up with no problems. Highway speeds? No problem.

Just sayin'

[JerryH]

I don't believe Yamaha still makes the Majesty. I tried both the Majesty and 400 Burg, and found the Burger to be a bit more comfortable and controllable in tight spots, due to the too wide floorboards on the Majesty. Problem was, even with their small cc engines, neither one was really an improvement over my 1500 Goldwing. I was wanting to get rid of the 'Wing because I have severe arthritis and am afraid I may drop it in a parking lot or at a stoplight sometime. But none of the maxis felt any more secure in those situations either. I never got a chance to try out any of the maxis on the open road, which I'm assuming they would be at their best. The Majesty does have a valve adjustment interval of 25,000 miles, with no check required after break in. But according to the Majesty forums, you have to pull the engine out to get to the valves, about $600 at a dealer. 25,000 miles would be about 2 years for me. I don't know about the Burg, but if that is what you want, then I would definitely go for it. Definitely a good idea to be riding what you like, if you can afford it.

[Rugby4life]

Originally Posted by JerryH

I don't believe Yamaha still makes the Majesty. I tried both the Majesty and 400 Burg, and found the Burger to be a bit more comfortable and controllable in tight spots, due to the too wide floorboards on the Majesty. Problem was, even with their small cc engines, neither one was really an improvement over my 1500 Goldwing. I was wanting to get rid of the 'Wing because I have severe arthritis and am afraid I may drop it in a parking lot or at a stoplight sometime. But none of the maxis felt any more secure in those situations either. I never got a chance to try out any of the maxis on the open road, which I'm assuming they would be at their best. The Majesty does have a valve adjustment interval of 25,000 miles, with no check required after break in. But according to the Majesty forums, you have to pull the engine out to get to the valves, about $600 at a dealer. 25,000 miles would be about 2 years for me. I don't know about the Burg, but if that is what you want, then I would definitely go for it. Definitely a good idea to be riding what you like, if you can afford it.

I bought a Majesty a couple of years ago as a daily commuter partly because of the huge under-seat storage. I enjoyed the adventure of figuring out all the things it could do well that I never thought were possible (hint, put on a set of Pirelli Diablos as soon as you get it). I just bought one of the new BMW scooters and man am I impressed. If maxi scooters keep evolving and improving the breed, I can't see why 90% of my riding desires couldn't be satisfied by it. A Ducati Hypermotard would take care of the other 10% nicely... Christmas is coming hint, hint, hint

[hacksaw55]

I did sort of the same. Went from a VTX 1800 which I just wasn't happy with, to a KLR 650 and really liked it. I now own a Yamaha Morphous and at 6'7" I really like it,but I think I want something bigger for trips. I've looked at a lot of the Maxi's and would go Honda or Suzuki myself, and I would buy used I see a ton of almost new scoots out there for great discounted prices. Have a great time with what ever you decide on.

[klx250sfguy]

Originally Posted by JerryH

I have owned 2 KLR650s, and sold them both. I love them, but finally had to come to terms with the fact that they are simply not comfortable enough for me on long trips. I still like trail riding, and I bought an XT225 for that, and heavily modified it with just about every bolt on goodie you can get for them except hard panniers. I bought a Goldwing for comfort, but for a solo rider it is overkill, and it gets less mileage than my car. I still have it, but don't ride it that much anymore. My plans are to sell it and buy a Harley. The reason is the Kawasaki Vulcan 750 I bought new back in 2002. It is by far the most comfortable bike I have ever owned, except for the Goldwing, and it's light weight and maneuverability more than make up for that. It is definitely an all day bike. I have put over 74,000 miles on it in 10 years. I have done 2 SS1000s on it, with ease. I will keep it till I wear it out. I test rode all the Japanese maxi scooters recently, with plans to buy one. But I found them very awkward, and harder to handle than the Goldwing. The Silverwing was the best fit, because it has cutouts in the floorboards so you can put you legs straight down beside it without having to hang your feet over the w-i-d-e floorboards of the others. They were so wide that even with a 34" inseam, I had trouble getting my feet on the ground. Even the tall KLR was easier to ride around town. I couldn't flat foot it, but I could tip toe it fairly easily. The edges of the floorboards hurt my legs when I tried to put my feet on the ground on the maxis.

I like scooters, I have 3, a Yamaha Vino 125 and Zuma 125, and a Genuine Stella 2 stroke. They are a lot of fun, but they may as well not have any suspension. I have a bad back, and everytime I hit a bump, which is quite often around here, they pound my back like a jackhammer. Because your feet are out in front of you, it is difficult to raise yourself off the seat when you see a bump coming.


Last thing, I would check into the maintenance requirements. Some maxi scooters have ridiculously high maintenance costs. Especially check the valve adjustment intervals and procedure. I chose the Zuma 125 over the Honda PCX150 because it takes 15 minutes to do the valves on the Zuma, and 3 hours on the PCX. Apparently you have to remove the whole body and pull the motor to get to the valves on a Majesty. Dealer book says 6 hours labor. Not sure about the Burgman. But definitely something to consider.

If comfort is your main concern, you might want to look at a cruiser, although modern cruisers are not as comfortable as the older ones. The Vulcan 750 is a 1985 design. Newer ones are designed more for looks.

I noticed that the new Burgman 400 is only available with ABS, definitely a turn off for me. Most like it, I hate it.

+1 ... Says it all.

[cdwise]

Originally Posted by redhandmoto

Some current maxis approach my list of ideal attrubutes...but they all look like the great ocean-going mammals, and I hate that look. Retro-styled maxis - the larger BVs - in urban traffic cannot get out of their own way, are stodgy at low speeds and unhandy at traffic manuvers. The Vespa GTS 300ie Super... I had a 250 - those scoots hate passengers, the seats are intolerable, and no Italian bike can hope to have the box-o-rocks reliability of the Japanese/Taiwanese marques, nor the parts/infrastructure support. It means something that Honda is killing Vespa market share - in Italy.

That doesn't match with what I've seen or experienced with either the BV 500s or GTS 250. Though my Scarabeo 500 has much more comfortable seat. All of which have been reliable except the 2007 Scarabeo but the guy I bought it from had installed a stereo and put extra switches for his speakers and it was an electrical issue I had with it. Its replacement a 2009 Scarabeo has been trouble free if you don't count the tire that blew out near the end of a 3,700 mile trip.

Piaggio group has 32.8% of the market share in Italy (April 2012 report) in large part due to the BV and SRV which increased their market share by 1.7% since their introduction (BV 350 and SRV 850). http://www.4-traders.com/PIAGGIO-C-S...rket-15453949/ Best number I can find for Honda's market share is 18.2% while other sources report 17.85%.

4 Piaggio models in the top 10 including the number 1 spot, 3 Hondas. Combine the two BV models and they outsell the Honda SH.

http://www.ancma.it/uploads/Statisti...iugno-2012.pdf

TOP 20 Gennaio-Giugno 2012 / January-June 2012
Marca / Brand modello / models tipologia / type quantità / units

PIAGGIO LIBERTY 125 PPTT Scooter 9389
YAMAHA TMAX 500 Scooter 7023
HONDA ITALIA SH 300 Scooter 4657
HONDA ITALIA SH 150 Scooter 4081
PIAGGIO LIBERTY 125 RST Scooter 3445
PIAGGIO BEVERLY 350 Scooter 3271
HONDA ITALIA SH 125 Scooter 3000
PIAGGIO BEVERLY 300 Scooter 2981
KYMCO AGILITY 125 R16 Scooter 2419
YAMAHA XMAX 250 Scooter 2302

KYMCO DOWNTOWN 300 Scooter 2125
PIAGGIO VESPA GTS 300 SUPER Scooter 2093
HONDA INTEGRA Scooter 1894
PIAGGIO VESPA LX 125 Scooter 1765
HONDA VISION Scooter 1745
BMW R 1200 GS Enduro 1706
YAMAHA XENTER 150 Scooter 1559
YAMAHA X-CITY 250 Scooter 1473
HONDA PCX 125 Scooter 1372
HONDA NC700X Enduro 1332

[redhandmoto]

Originally Posted by cdwise

That doesn't match with what I've seen or experienced with either the BV 500s or GTS 250.

Well, CD, that's good, that's you. I am not surprised that our experiences don't match. My take is based on my ownership and use of the GTS 250ie. Some people shared my experiences of it, others did not.

The GT series scoots have experienced headshake, not in all specimens, but in enough to cause wide remark. Ordinary fixes for such a thing, in weights, tire changes, headstock adjustment, have not consistently fixed it. It's enough of a question for me to wonder about the bike geometry itself.

The seating for pillions is an Abu Ghraib Stress Position. I was not wild about the rider's seat shape, either; not the groin-splitter/Prostate Exam divide shape, or the slope. For me, these problems emerged in extended day trip riding after weeks of around town.

As to Vespa vs Honda vs everybody else's sales in Italy, Europe, wherever, bully to Piaggio's rebound after eating it - and for no short time - upon the release of the SHi bikes. That was about the same time that the GTS 300 scoots came out to a chorus of complaints about inadequate bodywork primer and the formation of rust on brand new units, since sorted at the plant.

As for my experience of the BV500 that I tested for an afternoon, the seat was indeed way better. It was the bike's performance in crowded local streets that I did not care for, though I am sure it would more than satisfy on the slab. It just seemed - to me - like a scooter-shaped thing with a case of Gigantism. Again, that is a personal take. Others will see and feel it their way.

This is my experience of the scooters to hand. Many will not agree. The opinions and perceptions of all are valid - for each. The GTS was a bike I truly expected to love. I did not. Cachet, style, even many admirable elements of performance were not enough. For me. And that's why I sold it.
And here endeth my threadjack.