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Old 12-06-2012, 08:49 AM   #3901
Smithy
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Two more cents...

As a knifemaker who has used steel from several different suppliers, not all steels are created equal. You can get the same grade steel from two different sources, and there can be significant differences in the chemistry and initial internal structure of the material. In a backyard shop, even though I feel comfortable heat treating 1095, 1095 from one place needs to be handled differently than 1095 from another supplier. In my experience, all steels suffer this inconsistency, even though they have the same grade label.

To think that all 440C is exactly the same, all over the world, is foolish - and why I suggest that it's not an ideal material for knives. But people like shiny and no rust, so that's what they get, and if the shop producing blades isn't paying very close attention to what they're doing, they can mess it up with no visual signal that they have.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:53 AM   #3902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
Two more cents...

As a knifemaker who has used steel from several different suppliers, not all steels are created equal. You can get the same grade steel from two different sources, and there can be significant differences in the chemistry and initial internal structure of the material. In a backyard shop, even though I feel comfortable heat treating 1095, 1095 from one place needs to be handled differently than 1095 from another supplier. In my experience, all steels suffer this inconsistency, even though they have the same grade label.

To think that all 440C is exactly the same, all over the world, is foolish - and why I suggest that it's not an ideal material for knives. But people like shiny and no rust, so that's what they get, and if the shop producing blades isn't paying very close attention to what they're doing, they can mess it up with no visual signal that they have.
Is it a cost issue. Better steel of the same grade costs more? Or is it just different?
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:16 AM   #3903
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Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
Two more cents...

As a knifemaker who has used steel from several different suppliers, not all steels are created equal. You can get the same grade steel from two different sources, and there can be significant differences in the chemistry and initial internal structure of the material. In a backyard shop, even though I feel comfortable heat treating 1095, 1095 from one place needs to be handled differently than 1095 from another supplier. In my experience, all steels suffer this inconsistency, even though they have the same grade label.

To think that all 440C is exactly the same, all over the world, is foolish - and why I suggest that it's not an ideal material for knives. But people like shiny and no rust, so that's what they get, and if the shop producing blades isn't paying very close attention to what they're doing, they can mess it up with no visual signal that they have.
When you purchase you steel, do you get the Material Test Report (MTR) for what you recieve?
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:46 AM   #3904
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Here are my four EDCs that I tend to cycle through.

Most days, the Gerber Paraframe Mini (3rd from top) gets the nod but the latest addition, the CRKT M16 will get carried for the next little while.


I have the same CRKT knife. Use it everyday, no complaints from me.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:26 AM   #3905
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Cost to the end consumer has nothing to do with it - it's all about how the mill did the run, and whether the supplier had anything to do with it as well.

One thing people don't realize is that an awful lot of steel comes from recycled material, so your dad's Buick is in that billet as well, and while most of the really rotten stuff burns off, I've seen streaks of copper in a bar of steel before.

If they blend all the ingredients as they're supposed to, according to the recipe, they can call it by the spec's name. I'm sure there are tolerances for chemistry - so it's not "exactly" 0.95% carbon by weight, it's more like 0.86-1.02% as an acceptable range. Chemistry notwithstanding, the cooling rates from liquid to billet, the rate at which carbon was reduced, the manner in which alloying elements were introduced, and the process by which the steel was reduced to the form you get it can all play important roles in the character of the steel you end up with. It's actually a whole lot like baking, really. 2 chefs with the exact same ingredients, following the same recipe, but sourced from different stores and using their own techniques, will make two very different muffins.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:04 PM   #3906
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Originally Posted by wannaklr View Post
Is it a cost issue. Better steel of the same grade costs more? Or is it just different?
Sure cost has a lot to do with it. The same grade could be made with different melt practices. Steel made from the Vac Arc Remelt ( VAR ) method would cost about three times what standard air melt steel cost. Also VAR is not readily available and is not made in a wide variety of grades, unless you want to buy an entire heat of steel. A full heat of VAR is around 30K pounds. But you can have it your way!
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:16 PM   #3907
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Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
Two more cents...

As a knifemaker who has used steel from several different suppliers, not all steels are created equal. You can get the same grade steel from two different sources, and there can be significant differences in the chemistry and initial internal structure of the material. In a backyard shop, even though I feel comfortable heat treating 1095, 1095 from one place needs to be handled differently than 1095 from another supplier. In my experience, all steels suffer this inconsistency, even though they have the same grade label.

To think that all 440C is exactly the same, all over the world, is foolish - and why I suggest that it's not an ideal material for knives. But people like shiny and no rust, so that's what they get, and if the shop producing blades isn't paying very close attention to what they're doing, they can mess it up with no visual signal that they have.
If you are calling me a fool, you missed the part I wrote " This temperature is dependent upon the actual chemistry of the material. "

Why don't you use tool steel flats? The quality is very good and chemistry is consistant. For what a custom knife maker charges for a knife the additional cost of tool steel would not be noticed. O-1 or O-2?

On thing to know about the variability in the chemistry of steel is a steel manfacturing difficulity know as segragation. As the cast ingot cools the alloy elements group together in different parts of the ingot. When the ingort is rolled into , flats for example and in knife sizes there will be alot of feet of flat, there will be considerable varance in chemistry from the flats at the begianing of the rolling to the middle and at the end of the rolling.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:51 PM   #3908
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are you here for the ten minute argument or the full half hour?
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:11 PM   #3909
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are you here for the ten minute argument or the full half hour?
Are you Presiding High Council?
I'm just here to provide comment and info Your Honor.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:40 PM   #3910
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Originally Posted by fritzcoinc View Post
If you are calling me a fool, you missed the part I wrote " This temperature is dependent upon the actual chemistry of the material. "

Why don't you use tool steel flats? The quality is very good and chemistry is consistant. For what a custom knife maker charges for a knife the additional cost of tool steel would not be noticed. O-1 or O-2?

On thing to know about the variability in the chemistry of steel is a steel manfacturing difficulity know as segragation. As the cast ingot cools the alloy elements group together in different parts of the ingot. When the ingort is rolled into , flats for example and in knife sizes there will be alot of feet of flat, there will be considerable varance in chemistry from the flats at the begianing of the rolling to the middle and at the end of the rolling.
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I wasn't calling anyone out in particular, so please don't take offense where none was intended.

My knife steels of choice are primarily 1095, 1084, W1 and W2, occasionally O1, and sometimes some 15n20. I have also used 52100, 5160, I have a hunk of O6 for tool making, and some A2 I have yet to decide what to do with. for my historical work I end up making my own steels, either from carburized wrought iron, or smelted material direct from ore in most cases. I'm experimenting with recycling material into an orishigane-type product using an Aristotle furnace, and also have played around with high-nickel iron meteorite (campo).

My personal experience with variable product under a single spec is 1095. The stuff I get from Admiral steel is not annealed, and has massive alloy banding present in almost every purchase. I have changed suppliers to Aldo Bruno (the New Jersey Steel Baron) and his material is clean, well-annealed, and is ready to work, with no additional thermal cycling needed before it's "ready" for knife making. Even then, I know people who got a batch from him, and found inclusions, banding, or other flaws, and the product was replaced immediately - so his customer service carries some weight, but my main decision to use him comes from the nature of the steel as delivered, which is excellent for my purposes and techniques. I don't pretend to know about everything that goes on in a steel mill, but I know the end product can be rather varied depending on the quality controls in place, and the method by which the final bars are made.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:41 PM   #3911
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Are you Presiding High Council?
I'm just here to provide comment and info Your Honor.
No you aren't...
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:42 PM   #3912
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Oh cool...knife fight.
b
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:14 PM   #3913
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Originally Posted by Smithy View Post
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I wasn't calling anyone out in particular, so please don't take offense where none was intended.

My knife steels of choice are primarily 1095, 1084, W1 and W2, occasionally O1, and sometimes some 15n20. I have also used 52100, 5160, I have a hunk of O6 for tool making, and some A2 I have yet to decide what to do with. for my historical work I end up making my own steels, either from carburized wrought iron, or smelted material direct from ore in most cases. I'm experimenting with recycling material into an orishigane-type product using an Aristotle furnace, and also have played around with high-nickel iron meteorite (campo).

My personal experience with variable product under a single spec is 1095. The stuff I get from Admiral steel is not annealed, and has massive alloy banding present in almost every purchase. I have changed suppliers to Aldo Bruno (the New Jersey Steel Baron) and his material is clean, well-annealed, and is ready to work, with no additional thermal cycling needed before it's "ready" for knife making. Even then, I know people who got a batch from him, and found inclusions, banding, or other flaws, and the product was replaced immediately - so his customer service carries some weight, but my main decision to use him comes from the nature of the steel as delivered, which is excellent for my purposes and techniques. I don't pretend to know about everything that goes on in a steel mill, but I know the end product can be rather varied depending on the quality controls in place, and the method by which the final bars are made.
I say the same, no offense intended.

When I read you post it seemed you were having a bad day with your supplier. Bear in mind you are buying a very plain, low end product, 1095. Steel is a very difficult thing to make. Even the best made steel can fail. If you were buying a mills top of the line product, or the majority of its capicity, you may get a better product and more attention when a bad lot is found.

Steel mills also hold all Aces. As a manufacturer you have no choice but to buy what they make, good or bad. Although there are mountian high piles of specifications most count on in house QA to keep good raw material in their products and simply get creidt less scrap value from the mills for the rejects.

I guess you use 1095 for its vintage authentic quality? It is of interest to me you make your own steels.

I have made some knifes and posted photos here but my strong suit is heat treatment. I hope to be of some assistance to you sometime.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:15 PM   #3914
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No you aren't...
On what basis do you make that statement?
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:35 PM   #3915
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I say the same, no offense intended.

When I read you post it seemed you were having a bad day with your supplier.

Bear in mind you are buying a very plain, low end product, 1095.

If you were buying a mills top of the line product, or the majority of its capicity, you may get a better product and more attention when a bad lot is found.

I guess you use 1095 for its vintage authentic quality?

I hope to be of some assistance to you sometime.
I actually believe you're not trying to be a prick.

You just really are one.
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