Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

[Global Rider]

Originally Posted by _cy_

wet lead/acid had it's time ... for motorcycle batteries cost for AGM has come down very close to wet.

Still too finicky with respect to charging. FLAs can take more abuse and we all know how abused batteries are.

Originally Posted by _cy_

AGM for Adv bikes has the advantage of not spilling when your bike does go down. don't know of very many folks who has not dropped their adv bike at some point. that is if one goes off road any at all.

Catch bottle with cotton.

Originally Posted by _cy_

another huge advantage is very low self discharge. NO battery tender is needed providing you don't have parasitic drain.

But the problem is you do have drain. The advantage of the insignificant self discharge in a VRLA battery is insignificant compared to what the standby drain is in all vehicles. You have to disconnect the battery or use a maintainer. Not a "plus" unless you plan to store the battery on a shelf.

Originally Posted by _cy_

apologies for the rant...what a total crock of shit! technologies paid by US tax payer $$$ is falling into hands of other countries. not to mention another 120+ million US tax payer dollars in funding already approved.

sure hope this deal gets blocked!

Rant on. Somebody will get paid off and the deal will go through. If you think corruption only exists outside of North America, you're dreaming.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Global Rider

Still too finicky with respect to charging. FLAs can take more abuse and we all know how abused batteries are.

Catch bottle with cotton.

But the problem is you do have drain. The advantage of the insignificant self discharge in a VRLA battery is insignificant compared to what the standby drain is in all vehicles. You have to disconnect the battery or use a maintainer. Not a "plus" unless you plan to store the battery on a shelf.

Rant on. Somebody will get paid off and the deal will go through. If you think corruption only exists outside of North America, you're dreaming.

come on ... welcome to 2012 .. AGM is hands down better than wet lead acid!!! where is this harder to charge AGM stuff coming from?

granted if AGM goes completely dead, waking AGM up takes big honking amps. but batteries of all types when drained completely dead will pretty much kill it.

one of the biggest disadvantage of wet PB is high self discharge... bikes by their nature gets ridden from daily to every other month or once a season.

if one is committed to maintaining wet PB, then fine it will last a long long time. but most folks including me are lazy. they forget to put on battery tender. in short order wet PB are sulfated to point of non-recovery. I'd say most battery replacements are from going dead due to non-use vs wearing it out from too many cycles.

some modern bike have relatively high parasitic. those need tenders no matter what.

[Global Rider]

Originally Posted by _cy_

come on ... welcome to 2012 .. AGM is hands down better than wet lead acid!!! where is this harder to charge AGM stuff coming from?

Do you think AGM, FLA, GEL all charge to the same end voltage? The vehicle charging system has to me matched to the battery and temperature compensated. And most important of all, VRLA batteries should never be overcharged which is why most of them lead a short/shorter life. You can overcharge a FLA...just add water.

Do you want to see pics of piles of very dead and expensive 6T military AGM batteries?

Each has their advantages. I'll stick to my FLA. Why change if its in its 14th year and still cranking as always.

Bud, I'm not interested in starting page 20 of more of the same (imagine...20 pages of battery tech), nor do I have any bias (I don't sell batteries) towards any particular type.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Global Rider

Do you think AGM, FLA, GEL all charge to the same end voltage? The vehicle charging system has to me matched to the battery and temperature compensated. And most important of all, VRLA batteries should never be overcharged which is why most of them lead a short/shorter life. You can overcharge a FLA...just add water.

Do you want to see pics of piles of very dead and expensive 6T military AGM batteries?

where do see I think GM, FLA, GEL all charge to same end voltage? that's why I don't recommend gel cell batteries which do require a charger with slightly lower voltages. overcharging a gel could permanently damage it. AGM is really still a lead acid battery.

yes Gel and AGM can be killed by extended overcharging. hence why I don't recommend battery tenders for AGM, unless it's a model designed for AGM with current cutoff feature. then again one can kill LiFePO4 and Lithium cobalt and wet PB by extended overcharging too.

a normal charging system range from 13.8 to 14.2v, which can safely charge Gel, AGM and LiFePO4. but not lithium cobalt which does match 12v charging systems. not even getting into dangers of not stopping charge at set voltage. by the way, BMW still recommends Gel batteries depending on which model.

nothing above is new and is well understood ... hurts my head going backward digging all this back up
now back to our scheduled breakdown for Earth-X LiFePO4 batteries.

initial charge for Earth-X battery... max charge rate set for 5amp... battery is swallowing 2.7amp.. note lack of balance ports. Earth-X internal BMS will balance cells, making balance ports not necessary.


Powerlab8 finished charge at 14.4v ... volts is dropping, seeking resting volts. we'll see where battery voltage ends up at.
full charge/discharge/charge to determine actual amp hour capacity with a regenerative discharge/charge cycle with Powerlab8 soon.

[Global Rider]

Originally Posted by _cy_

why I don't recommend battery tenders

They do make good paper weights though. Thorough testing of a few chargers in the lab to see if they meet battery manufacturer's recommendations only came up with one, the Xantrex TrueCharge2. Not cheap, but damn good.

I'm amazed at the claims of charger manufacturers.

[_cy_]

Earth-X ETX24C resting voltage overnight at 13.87v

[_cy_]

UPDATE 1-US says will not give battery maker A123 rest of grant

The U.S. Energy Department will not give battery maker A123 the remaining half of its $249 million grant, following the company's high profile bankruptcy and acquisition by a Chinese auto parts supplier, a department official said on Monday.

China's Wanxiang Group won an auction for most of the assets of A123, which makes lithium ion batteries for electric cars.

The department official, who asked not to be named because of the proceedings are ongoing, said this had been made clear to all parties involved in bidding for A123.~

The company had received about $133 million of its $249 million grant when it filed for bankruptcy protection in October.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8NA4PZ20121210

[_cy_]

Why technical data on forums are among the most accurate anywhere on the WWW.

from another thread worth repeating...
---------------------

good point ... pic's or it didn't happen

SS all BS aside, I don't mind anyone drilling into what ever I post. this is why IMHO, detailed technical data on forums are the most accurate available anywhere because it's Vetted!. anything that survives yours and others ruthless nit-picking ... odds are will be correct.

there's detailed technical postings all over the WWW. But trouble is it's very hard to tell crap from truth. which gets back to why I've got such a high opinion on technical information posted on forums. it's vetted!!!! especially on high traffic forums like ADV with 287k members. anytime someone posts technical data. if there's any hint of a mistake. Someone will ruthlessly point it out!!! odds are usually there's several folks waiting to pounced on ANY mistakes no matter how small.

this is why I'll go out of my way to post LOTS of clear pictures. to where there is NO doubt validity of what I've posted. not saying I've never made mistakes ... but very seldom will anything I post be fundamentally wrong.

why do you think folks are constantly posting... Pic's or it didn't happen!!!

(SS if need be I'll chase down as easy to use, digital camera to send you for free and/or help you get up to speed on posting pic's.)

[LexLeroy]

Originally Posted by _cy_

UPDATE 1-US says will not give battery maker A123 rest of grant

The U.S. Energy Department will not give battery maker A123 the remaining half of its $249 million grant, following the company's high profile bankruptcy and acquisition by a Chinese auto parts supplier, a department official said on Monday.

China's Wanxiang Group won an auction for most of the assets of A123, which makes lithium ion batteries for electric cars.

The department official, who asked not to be named because of the proceedings are ongoing, said this had been made clear to all parties involved in bidding for A123.~

The company had received about $133 million of its $249 million grant when it filed for bankruptcy protection in October.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8NA4PZ20121210

Are you aware of any impact to either EarthX or Antigravity? It would appear to be a set-back if either or both are reduced to sourcing their cells from China.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by LexLeroy

Are you aware of any impact to either EarthX or Antigravity? It would appear to be a set-back if either or both are reduced to sourcing their cells from China.

no clue, but note some of A123's existing plants are already in eastern countries.

don't have a problem with lithium cells coming from China as there are only a tiny number of actual lithium battery mfg out there. most battery brands are private labels.

what I've got a problem with is giving away our technologies paid for by US tax payer $$$.

true story... back when li-ion (lithium cobalt) battery use was in it's infancy. (A123 was just getting started) I was part of the initial Candlepower forums groupbuy by JSBurley for what was the next breakthrough, paradigm shift for li-ion batteries.

what I'm referring to is technoloy integrating a BMS internal to li-ion cell. the protected R123 li-ion cell. flasholics or flashlight nuts were tired of paying $$$ for CR123 used in high tech flashlights. we all wanted a rechargeable for primary lithium CR123 batteries.

but back then it was all but impossible to purchase individual li-ion cells. battery mfg's correct fear of unstable lithium cobalt chemistry combined with lawyers = non-access of li-ion cells to general public. unless one could prove they were a legit OEM with ability to install a BMS in end battery packs, along with a specific to that pack li-ion charger.

back then and now .. Candlepower forums was on the bleeding edge in for technologies related to flashlights.

concept of integrating protection circuits or BMS into a R123 li-ion cell was hatched on CPF. JSBurely believed in the project so much that he hocked his house to fund the project.

what happened next was JSBurey paid for initial tooling rampup to a Chinese mfg to make the world first protected li-ion cell. the protected R123.

JSBurley was sweating bullets to deliver, as he had taken $$$ in groupbuy monies from folks on CPF.

finally ... after many runs that didn't work... JSBurley delivered to groupbuy folks the world's first protected R123 battery.

yes it worked... but just barely. amp hour capacity was probably about 100 milliamp hour or less. but it did work. so JSBurley still didn't have a commercial success on his hands.

what happened next was the sad part... the Chinese battery mfg then took the technologies paid for by JSBurley and ran with it.

the rest is history as consumer use of individual li-ion cells exploded (yes there were explosions) and became commonplace. since the Chinese don't always honor technical property rights. JSBurley got zip..nada ... nothing for his investments. He went broke and lost his house over it.

this is why .. I'm so against the giveaway of A123's technologies which in a HUGE part was paid for by US taxpayers.
for all we know technologies for the next paradigm shift for batteries is contained within A123's knowledge base. IMHO it's criminal to give that away to another country.

like it or not battery technologies are strategic assets that could impact our country in ways not yet apparent. The Chinese recognize this and are willing to plow LOTS of $$$ chasing it. note the same buyer was ready to pay $460 million earlier, but A123 backed out. yet at auction they paid about 1/2 that... a true bargain for the successful bidder. We need to stop this giveaway!!!

despite li-ion technologies originating from USA. America's markets share represented by A123 is a tiny 1%.
Source: CGGC, based on(METI, 2010; NEDO, 2009)

[_cy_]

unpacking Earth-X ETX24C and ETX36D LiFePO4 battery...

comes with lots of sticky backed Foam. slick battery terminal design allowing access from either direction.
battery 13.67v as received or fully charged.



ETX24C weight 2lb 5oz (scales checked w/lab standard)


ETX36D next to ETX24C with terminals installed


ETX36D weight 3lb 11oz

[_cy_]

regenerative discharge testing coming up ... let's see actual capacity in amp hour for Earth-X ETX36D.



Powerlab 8 set for one charge/discharge cycle. note wet PB battery hooked up to Powerlab 8, which acts as power source and end source for amps to discharge into. ETX36D is fully charged to 14.6v, 51milliamps to full.


Cycle 1 ... 11.28 amps in... 10.62 amps out (charge rate 10amp, discharge rate 7.5amps)


Cycle 2 ... 11.51 amps in... 10.79 amps out (charge rate 10amp, discharge rate 7.5amps)

[LocuL]

Looking forward to see if the Shoria LFX36 is better then this new Earth-X ETX36D.
The Earth-X ETX36D would fit my underseat tray and carry a lot of Ah.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by LocuL

Looking forward to see if the Shoria LFX36 is better then this new Earth-X ETX36D.
The Earth-X ETX36D would fit my underseat tray and carry a lot of Ah.

Shorai LFX36 has been in R80G/S for almost a year and doing an excellent job. whereas I'm just getting started testing ETX36D.

Cold weather seems to be somewhat elusive this year with warmest weather on record in Oklahoma.

Both LFX36 and ETX36D are substantially smaller/lighter than original R80G/S OEM battery. What's measurements of original battery? What are you trying to put a LiFePO4 battery into?

[_cy_]

Amp hour capacity testing in progress for Shorai LFX21 .. these test take about 3 hours per cycle with a two cycle min. charge/discharge rates are set at about 1C. discharge rates are limited to amount of heat/amp discharged into host wet pb truck battery.

note LFX21L6 resting voltage of 14.17v after sitting for several months


LFX21 cycle 1 results: 5,890 milliamps in .. 5,494 out