Rear Brake Usage during Braking

[ParaMud]

Originally Posted by hajime

I dropped my the bike while I was using a loaner for my beginner MSF course, because my hubby told me not to use the rear brake... I was kind of mad at him. Illogical, but sometimes us women folk are that way. After passing the course, I found some empty dry pavement and practiced braking a lot. I was terrified, but determined. I taught myself to use the right amount of front/rear depending on conditions. I also tried a dirt bike which gave me a feel for a sliding rear tire. I locked up the rear brake about a year ago, didn't go down...That was a nice wake-up call.

After, four years of riding and learning everything I can, I'm feeling a bit more confident. My final opinion, because this was a problem for me. Teach her to use both brakes. Explain how the physics actually works. She is probably really smart and can get this.. I know it's scary to let her try. I figure my hubby is a great rider but a bad bad wife teacher.

May I ask how you dropped your bike because you didn't use the rear brake?


Motogp does not use linked brakes.

[PeterW]

Looks around, finds the asbestos suit and puts it on.


Get her a bike with ABS - then it doesn't matter if she locks the rear, she can just stomp on the damned thing and not worry about whether it locks up after that or not.

We already know she's not some God like rider who can stop the bike by biting the front wheel with her teeth - what the OP is worried about is her being able to stop quickly without dropping the bike - and I'm sorry, but that's what ABS will buy for an inexperienced rider.

Pete

[Vulfy]

Originally Posted by ParaMud

The tons of motorcycle racers do not use the rear brake during straight up and down braking into the corner.

Their job is to slow down as much as possible in the shortest amount of time and they don't use the rear brake.



As for using the rear tire to brake, YES I do. I downshift! and sometimes I still brake the tire loose which doesnt bug me.

Well hold on... bringing Moto GP on slicks with professional riders on board, into this argument about a beginner learning to brake on a highway, is about as relevant as comparing horse apples to porcupines....


I would think its about a more gradual load on the tire and not locking the front. Relying solely on the front to take all the braking load, especially in a panic stop, is asking for a lockup of the front wheel. Add a curve in the road, and without proper practice, its much easier to wash out the front.

With rear, you can preload the bike, then transfer to the front, and ease up on the rear as needed.

And yes, unless you are stoppie-ing every time you come to a stop, your rear tire is still contacting the pavement and is still responsible for bike's braking. Braking with the engine by downshifting does not give you anything that a rear brake wouldn't give you, with a lot cheaper maintenance costs in a long run.

[ParaMud]

Originally Posted by Vulfy

Well hold on... bringing Moto GP on slicks with professional riders on board, into this argument about a beginner learning to brake on a highway, is about as relevant as comparing horse apples to porcupines....


I would think its about a more gradual load on the tire and not locking the front. Relying solely on the front to take all the braking load, especially in a panic stop, is asking for a lockup of the front wheel. Add a curve in the road, and without proper practice, its much easier to wash out the front.

With rear, you can preload the bike, then transfer to the front, and ease up on the rear as needed.

And yes, unless you are stoppie-ing every time you come to a stop, your rear tire is still contacting the pavement and is still responsible for bike's braking. Braking with the engine by downshifting does not give you anything that a rear brake wouldn't give you, with a lot cheaper maintenance costs in a long run.

I didn't put that in until someone else posted up a gp bike saying that it had a rear brake.

As for slicks, the difference of grip is proportional. Sure you have less front tire grip, but you have the same amount of grip difference in the rear so you can compare them.


Teaching the beginner the same concept as a professional racer seems fine to me. It allows them to slow down as fast as possible.
Racers don't slam on the brakes, they gradually load the front just like a normal street bike.
As for preloading the front, this is done just by rolling off the throttle before apply the brakes. (how I personally do it, but rear brakes is perfect also).

[hooliken]

And I only use 1 toe when I use my rear brake.............

[AustinJake]

Originally Posted by hooliken

Then you personally probably do not ride when traction is reduced much.....ala offroad.

You should become adept at using all braking power that our weee little contact patches provide. I believe that braking force is something of a 70/30 split front to rear.

There are going to be certain circumstances that proper use of the rear brake may just save your bacon.

Spot on, agree 100%

[bwalsh]

Originally Posted by ParaMud

The point of telling her not to use it during normal stops is because during an emergency brake, it is very hard to feather the rear brake and not lock it up and by not using it everyday, she won't slam down on it during an emergency brake out of habit.

So what is your opinion on this matter on teaching beginners about braking?

Personally, I very rarely use the rear brake.

You asked for opinions then you try and sway us towards your line of thinking.
The rear brakes there for a reason. Use it! Why do you think its easier to not lock the front brake verses the rear brake in an emergency?
Learn to use both, then every ride, find a deserted stretch of road and progressively use more and more pressure on the grip/pedal until she eventually learns where the brakes lockup(threshold braking).
Then, each ride, practice that threshold braking. Learn it BEFORE you need it.

Originally Posted by hajime

I dropped my the bike while I was using a loaner for my beginner MSF course, because my hubby told me not to use the rear brake... I was kind of mad at him. Illogical, but sometimes us women folk are that way.

Nothing illogical about being mad at getting bad information that can hurt you or worse.

Originally Posted by PeterW

Get her a bike with ABS - then it doesn't matter if she locks the rear, she can just stomp on the damned thing and not worry about whether it locks up after that or not.

We already know she's not some God like rider who can stop the bike by biting the front wheel with her teeth - what the OP is worried about is her being able to stop quickly without dropping the bike - and I'm sorry, but that's what ABS will buy for an inexperienced rider.

Pete

I think swapping out bikes to give her a crutch is
1: Expensive
2: Unrealistic

He's not worried about her locking up the rear because shes not using it as per his instructions.
What if after a year or two she want's a non ABS bike. She will either have a painful learning experience or will revert back to "front brake only" mode.
Every beginner goes thru the same learning process and there are thousands of happy beginners on non-ABS bikes...without issues.

Disclaimer: Yeah, you can stop only using the front brake. You can stop only using the back brake. But in an "emergency situation" you need both to stop in the shortest amount of space.
Hell, I sometimes only use one brake but most of the time I use both. Advanced riding techniques are for advanced riders, not beginners.

[bwalsh]

Originally Posted by viverrid

There is no such thing as a fixed front/rear ratio so in that sense 70/30 is bullshit. But they also put a rear disc on performance bikes for a reason. Until you are actually doing a stoppie, there is still rear braking power left. In normal street riding, people are not doing stoppies.


The way to learn to not lock up the rear is to use the rear enough to get familiar with its characterisitcs, not to not touch it out of fear it will lock up. That's just as bad as the Hardly Dimwitson riders who supposedly are afraid to touch the front brake for fear they'll go over the bars.

It's not bullshit. Maybe the exact percentage is but in a controlled environment the front brake will generate a LOT more stopping power than the rear. How would you explain the front verses rear brake stopping force to a beginner?

[Wraith Rider]

Originally Posted by bwalsh

What if after a year or two she want's a non ABS bike. She will either have a painful learning experience or will revert back to "front brake only" mode.
Every beginner goes thru the same learning process and there are thousands of happy beginners on non-ABS bikes...without issues.

Still it's much easier and MUCH safer to practice proper braking on an ABS bike.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by viverrid

In normal street riding, people are not doing stoppies.

Who made up that stupid rule?

[bwalsh]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

Still it's much easier and MUCH safer to practice proper braking on an ABS bike.

Not when you don't own one.

[FFLTR]

That is funny you ask for opinions then argue with anyone with a different view than yours.

If you're worried about her locking the back brake by just stomping on it what makes you think she will be any different with the front? You don't think she will just grab the hell out of the front and go down when it locks and washes out?

Personally I think it's easier to recover from a rear brake slide than a front one, even for a beginner. All they have to do is keep stomping on that pedal.

What scenarios do you anticipate her making a hard stop? (I don't think she is doing stoppies, so the rear wheel coming up shouldn't be factored in. I would think she locks the front wheel before it comes up)
Straight dry road - using both brakes and locking up the back should be no problem
In a turn - grabbing the front usually makes you go down, stomping on the back makes you fly then hit the ground, using some of both works
Slick road - grabbing the front not good, stomping on the back not good but probably not as bad, using both good

Also, I guess a lot of this depends on what kind of bike she rides.

Practice using both would be the best as others have said.

[hooliken]

Originally Posted by ParaMud

The tons of motorcycle racers do not use the rear brake during straight up and down braking into the corner.

Their job is to slow down as much as possible in the shortest amount of time and they don't use the rear brake.



As for using the rear tire to brake, YES I do. I downshift! and sometimes I still brake the tire loose which doesnt bug me.

And comparing your n00b riding girlfriend to Rossi is just ridiculous!

That is like trying to teach a new offroad rider to get though a tough section by showing them videos of Knighter doing it in a race.

[ParaMud]

Originally Posted by bwalsh

You asked for opinions then you try and sway us towards your line of thinking.
The rear brakes there for a reason. Use it! Why do you think its easier to not lock the front brake verses the rear brake in an emergency?

Of course I am going to defend my position.

Well there is very little weight on the rear wheel during heavy braking, making it very, very easy to lock up. Simple physics on why the front brake is much harder to lock up during heavy braking.

She uses the front brake correctly, smooth on, smooth off and stay relaxed on the bike. That is the only advice I have given her. She has done MSF and done some local independent instruction.

[ParaMud]

Originally Posted by hooliken

And comparing your n00b riding girlfriend to Rossi is just ridiculous!

That is like trying to teach a new offroad rider to get though a tough section by showing them videos of Knighter doing it in a race.

How is it not comparable. They develop bikes from motogp and put them on the street. His goal is to stop as fast as possible. That is her goal also.