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Old 12-13-2012, 02:13 AM   #106
Jacl-Kampuchea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post

As a beginner a person does not know how to feather the rear brake. The front all of the stopping power when emergency braking.

I am talking life and death, there is a car stopped in front of you. You need to stop ASAP, do you think you can modulate the rear brake to not lock up?

Is it better to lock up the rear brake or do nothing to it?
Unless you are on a cruiser or some back heavy bike, I don't think many people can not lock up the rear tire in an emergency stop.

People under estimate the amount of front tire brake that you can do.
Depending on her ride - If she were using the front brake to it's maximum there would be every chance her back wheel would not be on the ground to brake with.

I use both in emergency stop situations, obviously, with a massive bias toward the front. I don't lock it up when I need to make emergency stops.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:37 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
...
As a beginner a person does not know how to feather the rear brake. ...
So the OP is suggesting she not use it at all - and that will magically teach her to feather it as she gains experience? Perhaps she will suddenly wake up one day saying "I am no longer a beginner, I'm going to start using the rear brake."

It takes a few minutes to teach that skill to a total beginner - and they will get better at it with practice, just like everybody else.

All the idiots foaming at the mouth and ranting about braking on a sportbike, on smooth dry roads, or under race conditions, etc., have not merely missed the point, they've missed the entire concept.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:12 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
How is it not comparable. They develop bikes from motogp and put them on the street. His goal is to stop as fast as possible. That is her goal also.
No, No, No......what they are doing in that picture is slowing to corner entry speed not "panic" stop. I was willing to agree with you on some of your points but this makes no sense.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:21 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
My thoughts on why rear brake usage during panic stops is bad.

1. You're added _twice_ the amount of task for stopping you now need to manage 2 separate brakes systems and tire level tractions.
2. The majority of the bike's stability is coming from the gyro of the running engine and the spinning wheels. If you lock the front and the engine is still spinning and the rear tire is still turning you have a very good chance of reducing pressure and riding out of it because the bike is still stable and tracking straight.

You lock the rear which is very easy to do while hard on the front and kill the engine you've lost much of your stability and your ability to re-accelerate and if you then lock the front on top of that the bike is completely unstable. To avoid killing the engine you now need to manage a 3rd control.

The nature of an emergency is that you aren't planning for it. It's hard to properly modulate 7 controls (front brake, rear brake, clutch, steering, body position, throttle) during a full on stop when doing planned full on stop, like on a race track.

It's going to be damn near impossible to pull it off when you didn't except it, because face it. If you where in a position to do it all right you'd not be in an emergency stop because you'd have seen it coming and already taken action to avoid the situation.
I've never heard of this notion that the engines gyroscopic forces keeps the bike upright. apparently neither has my drz.




seriously through, do a couple of panic brake practices engine-off and see there is no difference. well, unless you have a 55lb flywheel on an R6, pegged at the redline.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:22 AM   #110
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I replaced the gremlin bell on my bike with a crystal ball... I haven't made a panic stop since.

Seriously you need to teach her to use BOTH brakes smoothly, and she needs to practice the technique. I suggest a dirtbike.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:31 AM   #111
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Damn. I expected more of this site. The ignorance in this thread is staggering. Thanks for reminding me why I often ride alone.

If you doubt the rear brake's contribution to stopping power try getting up to 140 or so and STOP HARD using only the front brake. The effect of the rear brake is more than a shorter stopping distance. It's CONTROL of the motorcycle and in a hard braking scenario is anything more important?
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:56 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
I am not talking about going around in a parking lot and using the back brake, I am talking about on the freeway and coming to a stop.

I have been telling my girlfriend not to use the rear brake on the street. Her front brake is more than enough to stop and she just needs to smoothly keep applying more pressure on it to stop, and even harder to stop faster.

The point of telling her not to use it during normal stops is because during an emergency brake, it is very hard to feather the rear brake and not lock it up and by not using it everyday, she won't slam down on it during an emergency brake out of habit.

So what is your opinion on this matter on teaching beginners about braking?

Personally, I very rarely use the rear brake.
I'm with you, but it all depends on the bike, and road as to what's "normal."
If braking "normally" on dry pavement, (and I'm assuming she's on a light bike, not a tourer?) then it's best to focus on available traction at the front since the rear wheel will be in the air or real light anyways. But, it's also good ta ride around, and only use the rear brake so she can see how worthless and prone to locking it is.

When I sold my FZ1, it had a little over 50K mi. and was on it's 5th set of front brake pads, while the rears were still on the 1st set. I only used the rear when two up, in the wet, or on gravel.
Now with my FJR, I use the rear more since the bike's lower, has a longer wheel base, and abs. I can just mash the rear brake 'n not have ta worry 'bout it lock'in.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:32 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
My thoughts on why rear brake usage during panic stops is bad.

1. You're added _twice_ the amount of task for stopping you now need to manage 2 separate brakes systems and tire level tractions.
2. The majority of the bike's stability is coming from the gyro of the running engine and the spinning wheels. If you lock the front and the engine is still spinning and the rear tire is still turning you have a very good chance of reducing pressure and riding out of it because the bike is still stable and tracking straight.

You lock the rear which is very easy to do while hard on the front and kill the engine you've lost much of your stability and your ability to re-accelerate and if you then lock the front on top of that the bike is completely unstable. To avoid killing the engine you now need to manage a 3rd control.

The nature of an emergency is that you aren't planning for it. It's hard to properly modulate 7 controls (front brake, rear brake, clutch, steering, body position, throttle) during a full on stop when doing planned full on stop, like on a race track.

It's going to be damn near impossible to pull it off when you didn't except it, because face it. If you where in a position to do it all right you'd not be in an emergency stop because you'd have seen it coming and already taken action to avoid the situation.
wrong ,wrong ,wrong, practice practice practice till every input is automatic every time, the brain should never enter into the procedure. eye and hand and feet. no thinking . if you know a full swing excavator operator ask them how much they think about using both hands and both feet all the time. the answer is never. the eyes see, the hands and feet function and the brain listens to talk radio.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:45 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
Damn. I expected more of this site. The ignorance in this thread is staggering. Thanks for reminding me why I often ride alone.

If you doubt the rear brake's contribution to stopping power try getting up to 140 or so and STOP HARD using only the front brake. The effect of the rear brake is more than a shorter stopping distance. It's CONTROL of the motorcycle and in a hard braking scenario is anything more important?
a perfect example of ignorance...you don't know how to use the front brake and you've never braked hard for a turn from 140mph.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:48 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
But repeatedly doing something risky successfully for 25 years in the real world, where doing it wrong could and likely will fuck you up sooner or later, means doing it mostly right. I try to not have to emergancy brake, but I can't predict absolutely everything all the time, especially in heavy traffic like SoCal perpetually has. So it happens now and then. I consider the emergency stop to be a *very* important skill, as any time you need to do it, the consequences of doing it wrong are likely to be heavy. So I have taken care to know what I'm doing there. And the method I outlined is the best one there is.
Or you over estimated the risk of riding, or took less than average risk.

Risk mitigation is the most effective riding stragety and if you're doing it right you should never have to "panic stop".

What is your high performance riding experience? And what's your experience on high performance bikes

Quote:
In a literal sense, the clutch comment is from the fact that engine braking usually involves downshifting, which involves the clutch and more specifically involves modulating the clutch with some slip as you re-engage it after the downshift so as not to break the rear wheel loose. Which does cost some clutch wear.
I guess if you fuck up your downshift and miss the rev match that's the case.

Quote:
More generally, engine braking involves reversing the stresses on the entire drivetrain, and pushing backwards on everything, which really isn't a great idea. So for best care of the bike, it's better to not do a lot of engine braking, and if you want to apply some braking force at the rear, use the rear brake, as that's what it is designed for, and not the engine, which is not optimized for that purpose
please... that's non-sense.

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That has been done MANY times, by various magazines and other groups. EVERY time, they find that using the both brakes makes you stop faster. On some bikes (cruisers, tourers, scooters) the rear brake adds a lot of braking power. On standards a middling amount. On sportbikes a small amount, but not zero. And on all but the best surfaces, the rear is more helpful. I think the last one I saw was from Cycle World, and a couple of the very best riders were able to equal their distances using the front only vs. both, but still only a couple of them, and only on sportbikes on good surfaces.
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And no, if you lock the front and are less than a supreme expert, you are falling down regardless of what the rear is doing. So you won't have a worse time at all if both lock vs. just the front. Nope. Wrong. Fail.
HAHA. Please. Go do it. Go lock up the front, and then go lockup the front while hard on the rear tell me which time you find the pavement like a sack of shit instantly.


Quote:
Have you actually ridden a motorcycle before? Do you know what the clutch is? Even the newest rider knows to pull in the clutch while braking, and that's a universal reflex, requiring no extra attention, among people who have actually ridden more than once. Sheesh.
Have you preceeded beyond newb level? Most "advanced" riders leave the clutch out while they're braking unless they are actively engaged in rev matching, or stopped.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:58 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Tripped1 View Post
There are a lot of qualifiers there.
You can recover the front, but its a bit hairy, and the faster you are going the more time you have to correct it.
No it's not, you reduce lever pressure and magically it's not an issue.

The only difference between it happening at 10 mph and 100mph is the length of the skid mark.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:59 AM   #117
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We will eventually need to emergency stop on the street.

On the race track, I see a lot of slowing down, but stopping? Unless you crash I do not see any stopping on a race track.

So in the end the technique you use to Stop hard and fast can and will often be different than the technique used to slow, since the intent at the track is not to stop but to reach a certainpoint and then go faster, not stop.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:59 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
wrong ,wrong ,wrong, practice practice practice till every input is automatic every time, the brain should never enter into the procedure. eye and hand and feet. no thinking . if you know a full swing excavator operator ask them how much they think about using both hands and both feet all the time. the answer is never. the eyes see, the hands and feet function and the brain listens to talk radio.
Only professional racers have problems getting it right when they plan on stopping, and no when it's going to happen and everyone is doing the same thing.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:08 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
We will eventually need to emergency stop on the street.

On the race track, I see a lot of slowing down, but stopping? Unless you crash I do not see any stopping on a race track.

So in the end the technique you use to Stop hard and fast can and will often be different than the technique used to slow, since the intent at the track is not to stop but to reach a certainpoint and then go faster, not stop.
I don't care how anybody uses their brakes. Do whatever you want. I just can't stand all the lecturing from people who don't know what they are talking about.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:13 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
No it's not, you reduce lever pressure and magically it's not an issue.

The only difference between it happening at 10 mph and 100mph is the length of the skid mark.

...and how long it takes before your face is in the pavement.

There is a BIG difference in a front end lock from 100mph and 10mph. I've done both on more then one occasion.
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