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Old 12-03-2012, 11:07 AM   #16
Bambi
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Hi Jerry,

the first off-roaders with fairings were Dakar-Bikes as these got bigger (first generation were XT 500s, XL 500s and similar modified bikes without such features). Introducing twin-cylinder-bikes with 750 and more cc suddenly speeds of 100 mph + were reached. You can't stand that flat-out a whole day without wind-protection. So for example HPN put a fork-mounted fairing on the big BMWs and there were also fairings put on bikes like Suzuki's DR 600. Afaik Honda had the first real purpose-built off-road-fairing on their NXR 750 - also to make the fast trip to Dakar a bit easier for the riders. Their Trans Alp must have been the first dual-sport-bike offered to the common customer with a feature like that at the end of 1986/beginning of 1987. Has been followed by Suzuki's DR Big in 1988 ...

Kind regards, Bambi
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:36 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post
Thanks for the input folks.

Sailah,
I already own the YZ forks and even though KTM forks are not too bad priced, I have been scouring ebay for a while, the cheapest I have seen is about $200.00 USD for a set with triple clamps. I own the YZ forks and the TCs. I LOVE KYB forks. Enzo is not far and they are awesome at KYB stuff and have always valved all of my YZ race bikes. I have looked and researched springs and unless I am missing something, Progressive makes up to 79kg/inch springs for these forks and stock is 48kg....I think that will be plenty if I keep the bike as light as I want to. Especially is Ross' boys at Enzo valve me the way they have in the past, I will be fine. But food for thought for sure.
.
You might be totally right, and Enzo is a fantastic tuner for sure. I have KYB closed chamber forks on my 2012 Husky and they are simply fabulous. I don't want to give the impression that they are subpar forks, I love them. I too had KYBs off a YZ450 and was trying to get some help from James at Superplush. He was very helpful and talked me out of it for a couple reasons.

First was the springs. He seemed to think (and maybe he was wrong) that there were simply no options past a certain weight which I can't remember. We even thought about cutting the stock springs to increase the rate at the expense of travel but this was quickly scrapped.

The other issue you really need to think hard about is total weight of the bike. This is not to be taken lightly. KYB forks were designed for 250# motocross bikes and while they might fair perfectly well with your proposed bike donor, the braking is simply not up to par. I went round and round with this issue. Standard motocross bikes have a ~260mm thin lightweight rotor and 2 piston calipers. That won't slow a heavy bike down enough to be safe in my opinion. Sure you can upgrade everything to supermoto and run a 320 rotor and caliper relocation bracket, but now the weak link is the caliper. Plus price all that stuff out at Motostrano and you'll see what I mean. Plus the front wheels have very thin spokes to save weight. you don't want that if you are running this setup on an boxer, they weigh too much. So now you need a heavy spoke kit etc.

After weeks of kicking it around I realized it would be cheaper and better just to spend the money now on a set of KTM 950 forks, brakes, rotors, and a new front wheel from Woody's than upgrade lightweight stuff that wasn't up to the task from the start. Yes, it's expensive to do it right I know but it's even more expensive to do it wrong, then right. I would ask Enzo to have a look at your setup and get their opinion. I think you are probably right you can get heavier springs but the braking issue is the one that would give me pause.

On the FZ1 I have a stock KTM 950 setup, twin rotors, twin Brembos etc, heavier springs. All stock parts Bike weighs about 450, maybe 475#

On the CBR, I have KTM dirt bike forks, 320 Braking rotor, Braking master and Braking caliper which are all supermoto caliber stuff. Bike weighs 364# ready to ride. I am swapping out all of this to my new bike and running the factory KTM supermoto components which utilize a 310mm rotor and a 4 piston radial caliper

The New Ninja I am going to rob all those components. The bike is yet to be built but will be very close to 375-400 by the time I am done. I think this is really the limit for dirt bike components on a bigger conversion, as i tip the scales at 230 myself.

I would just encourage you to look into all the variations with your build, and some you won't realize until you get there. I made many mistakes on my first couple builds, now that I am on my third I am trying hard to not repeat them. Most of the mistakes were from trying hard to make something work that was simply not the right tool for the job. I'd waste valuable shop time and money fighting it the whole time and finally buy the right part and bam, fixed. Shoulda just done it right the first time.

Many different ways to get to the end result and building a bike is highly personalized so I don't want to try and force my way of thinking on your build. I'm just commenting from someone who has been to the other side a few times the lessons learned I would hope to save you from making the same mistakes.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:51 AM   #18
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Hey Sailah,
Thanks for a great input reply. I really value your experience and reply.

To address some of your concerns, I have weighed alot of these very factors and believe I am still on a good track to balance budget and performance. I have been watching ebay and other KTM related sites flea markets and any set off WP forks that are dual disc are often in the $1000 range with the cheapest I have seen at $400, but that was just forks. To get forks, triples, wheel, rotors, calipers and all hardware would usually about $1500 baring some deep deal connection.

I bought the KYB forks, triples, bars, caliper, MC, and brake line for $80 in useable condition, not beat down crap, reaseal and use if I so chose. I wont, but doable. I got a good condition complete straight front wheel with axle and Excel front rim and good bearings for $45.

No matter what forks I would buy I always revalve and spring for my style, too many years racing and knowing the value of the right set up. In the late 90s I even had suspension companies sponsor me and do my suspension for free, not bragging just saying I am experienced with what I want and who is the best for different brands. So any revalving and springing is a wash because I would do it on a KTM set up or my KYB.

On brakes and spokes, Yamaha uses larger holes in the hub and tapers the spokes down after they get past the hub. You can get a set of 1 over spokes and heavy duty nipples for $80 and I lace and true my own stuff. The brakes are very good on the late 90s n up Yamis and rival a single disc KTM set up. A supermoto 320mm rotor and offset caliper bracket kit from EBC is $180 for all. So far I am at $385 for the Yami KYB complete front end + valve and springs usually in the $300 range. I usually get forks and shock revalved and sprung for right about $500 from Enzo.

All in all I am at just under $700 bucks which is not much more than just a set of KTM fork legs that I would still need alot of other stuff. To go with a KTM set up I see about $2000 to get me where I am at.

I know many have struggled with heavy springs for non WP forks but I have found 2 different suppliers with plenty of high weight choices including progressive models. Most for under $80.

$1400 goes along way with the build I am trying to do and I am confident that the set up will work. If for some reason I am wrong and it is just not up to the weight and braking I want, then I am only out $700 and the forks will work great on some other project like a nice dual sport bike like an XR400 or XR 650R DRZ KLR......and I start over with the KTM stuff you suggest.

I really hope this does not sound confrontational at all, not meant that way and your input is taken under serious advisement, but it is where I am at and where I think I will go for now. I will let you know if it sucks....I admit my failures readily. I fail alot...just ask my wife...

I am actually still waffling on the bike to start with, that is my biggest issue. I have a perfectly good R80G/S that I am considering build as an HPN "style" adventure bike, simple and clean easily fixable anywhere and a popular bike. Issue is low HP imho. I have a good running low mile R1100RT that I like but have gotten bored with a bit on long slab stuff. Better HP that the airhead, but a bit heavier starting point. The swing arm and drive shaft do not need to be lengthened, that is a big plus. Then Russ Dursmaa has the cool HPN style trellis front frame like the R900RR bike for about $2000. My savings on forks is more than 2/3s the cost of that frame making it a possibility, but I also think I could build my own or modify what I have like larryboy did.

I also am really liking what JTH has done with his Sporty build.....too many choices, not enough time or money for all. In a perfect world.......

Thanks guys
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:56 AM   #19
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BTW, I forgot to mention, I always hear everyone insist that you can not put a 4 piston caliper on a 21" wheel, but I have 2 pics somewhere of someone running a Brembo 4 on a 21" wheel with a 320mm rotor. I KNOW it can be done. Not sure if they spaced the rotor over an 1/8th of an inch and made a custom bracket or what, but I have seen. I also found a Brembo caliper off of a wrecked Ducati for the left side fork that was not the radial mount style, but the verticle bracket style for $50 on Ebay, even if the 320mm set up was not enough I am sure that 4 piston would be plenty for a 450-500# scooter.....I hope.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:51 PM   #20
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No offense taken at refuting any of my points a lot of things can be tackled many ways. I think I was into my front end for about 1750 not counting revalve. The money was a factor for me too but the safety and being sure it all just works was the real deciding factor for me

My last two builds are much lighter so I didn't see a need for heavy hardware

I looked into adapting four piston brembos but every time I got serious a bolt on solution appeared and I used that.

I hope you come up with a great solution for cheap lots of guys would be interested in your solution
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:17 PM   #21
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Glad you are online Sailah.
Just so can be confident that your input has been taken under advisement and I am doing due dilligence. I have been researching the HPN R900RR and the BMW HP2 enduro bikes for weight and braking specs. I have found weight specs on the HP2 at about 196 kg or 430lbs. I am sure the R900RR is in that area, if someone knows PLEASE chime in.
Both of those bikes use 2 piston calipers with 304mm rotors.
I am sure that playing with different diameter MCs and using the SM EBC 320mm rotor kit should give me plenty of whoa if I keep my bike under 450lb ISH....

$1750 not counting valving is a ton for me and if you take valving out of my equation, I am at $385 for a heavy spoked, 320mm braked inverted fork set up and front wheel. Right back at my original estimate of about $1400 savings and a set of forks I have raced for many years and KNOW I love the feel and action of even more than any of my WP forks on my KTMs.

Your input has definately made me continue my research and not leap forward blindly. I also will eat humble pie if not effective in the end and will give you your props. As I stated, I am like you in that I like alot of different riding places sand styles. I own 4 bikes currently and plan on other builds, so the worst that can happen is I end up with a great set of forks and brakes for some other lighter build.

I did also look at the Kawasaki KLR650 new model and older style and they both weigh in at well over 400lbs with the new one at 430lbs, both use a 270mm rotor and a 2 piston caliper. I see most people who ride those seem to love them and most people who are doing the Ninja/Versys 650 enginge swaps seem ok on the brakes. I am shooting for a bike close to that weight so I am still thinking I will be ok.

After I heal up from my surgery on last wednesday I will start more seriously at my build and start a thread.

I had to have C5-7 REfused since the first one only barely took on C5/6 and C6/7 had 2 busted Ti screws. I had a bone graft from my right pelvis ileac crest....It sucks and will be months in a C-spine collar and only lifting 3 lbs max....no building any time soon.

Hopefull at about 3 months post surgical I will get up to about 30-40lbs lifting and can start a build since I will still have 3-6 more months of no riding no helmets....hmmm 3 months to build something cool....we will see.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:43 PM   #22
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To be fair, my fz1 has triple the hp of a klr and can achieve warp ten in a blink of an eye, a 270 rotor would not cut it for safety reasons, same with a two pot caliper. Getting the weight down is very important for lots of reasons and it sounds like you have a handle on that.

Good luck with your recovery and subsequent bike build looking forward to progress as it happens.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:47 PM   #23
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Exactly Sailah.
I am shooting for power somewhere between the KLR and yuor FZ1 and plan on using a 320mm rotor, much better than the 270mm on the KLR. I really hope I will be fine, and believe I will be.

A side bar question here though, just one of my wierd, idle mind rambling, but I get that a high HP bike will GET up to high speed rapidly, much more so than a doggy bike, but when it comes to stopping power isn't that all about speed and weight or inertia and mass? Where does HP come into play on stopping that equation?

What I am asking is, if a 1700#, 800hp indy car had the same brakes and tires as a 1700# dragster with 5000hp but both were rolling at 80mph, what would be different in stopping?

I realize that at 150 or at 300mph the brakes would be very different feeling and working, but stopping a 500# motorcycle from 80mph to 0 with 75 hp would be the same as stopping a 500# MC from 80mph to 0 with 150hp as long as the throttle was off...of course.

School me if I am wrong....my mind is a spounge...argueable a dry spounge though...lol
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:41 PM   #24
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An indy car has a much bigger contact patch and real brakes

A dragster has a parachute

I know zip about cars though. Weight, brakes, and repeated braking, surface conditions, speed etc all play into I think. I've lost rear brakes from boiling fluid on a long downhill on my 950. How thick the rotor is, pads etc. all come into play too. Braking technique as well
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post
I realize that at 150 or at 300mph the brakes would be very different feeling and working, but stopping a 500# motorcycle from 80mph to 0 with 75 hp would be the same as stopping a 500# MC from 80mph to 0 with 150hp as long as the throttle was off...of course.

School me if I am wrong....my mind is a spounge...argueable a dry spounge though...lol
You are correct for a single stop in that situation but the higher hp bike would reach higher speeds (if the rider wanted to) on any given straight and so have to dissapate more energy over a certain time, say through a series of straights and bends.

If the two bikes were just cruising along at the same speed then their brakes could safely be the same.

But if you have the power you're probably going to want to use it!

Your 320mm rotor would probably be fine, my F650 has 300mm and weighs ~185kg (407 lbs) and that's more than enough.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:31 PM   #26
kellymac530 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post
An indy car has a much bigger contact patch and real brakes

A dragster has a parachute

I know zip about cars though. Weight, brakes, and repeated braking, surface conditions, speed etc all play into I think. I've lost rear brakes from boiling fluid on a long downhill on my 950. How thick the rotor is, pads etc. all come into play too. Braking technique as well

Learn to read....

I said "If they had the same brakes and tires"...the point of the story was the big HP difference....many would argue the point is on my head though....and in elementary school it often was.

Michael,
Thanx for the help. I thought that HP would make no difference on braking...outside of just USING the HP....which unfortunately I am heavy handed and like the right grip alot so brakes are definately a concern as Sailah has helped me to see.

This all has given me some great perspective and some things to be ready to address and even expect some issues with.
I get a bad rap at times, but I am appreciative and try to be helpful although often it seems taken the wrong way...maybe I have not been using enough emoticons....
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:09 AM   #27
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Biggest advantage of frame-mounted lights and fairing is getting that weight off the handlebars. Really slows down the steering and affects the way the bike feels/rides.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:48 PM   #28
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Jesus, or is it Haysues....english pronunciation

I am aware that weight on the front wheel seriously affects the handling and heavy feel in steering, but I guess I kind of always assumed that was all weight on the front end not just on the forks. Interesting input.

It seems like a bigger frame mounted fairing would usually weigh a bit more than a fairing/mask set up on the forks so the overall front end weight would be even more, but it sounds like you are saying that the added weight right on the forks/bars make the steering itself heavy. Food for thought.

My only real comparison on that topic is neglegable. Most of my DS bikes have all be more MX based DS bikes with a very small light weight plastic mask and headlight that was not much heavier than an MX number plate. Mine are usually a more Baja Designs style that do not even have a metal frame and glass headlight like some more street oriented DS bikes.

That kind of sways me back to a frame mount set up and low fender, but still weighing it all out and doing some brain designing...

Thanks for some new input on the original topic
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:08 PM   #29
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Yeah, it makes a difference. Kind of like rotational weight in your wheels, or sprung vs. unsprung weight. Especially if you're running big/heavy lights. The 8" HID light on my KTM sucks. The weight is really noticeable (but the light is amazing). Frame-mounted setups don't have to be big and heavy...
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:09 PM   #30
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My only 2 comparisons I would have are the stock setup on my KTM 530 {minimal weight, but as you say, CRAPPY lite} and the RT I have or the GS/GSAs that I have ridden.

The BMWs I have or have ridden are not a fair comparison to a convention front fork system with a frame mounted light/fairing since they are so different and feel, steer, and brake so much different.

I appreciate the input...more to compute...computing is above my brain skill set set....it is more of abacus than computer...
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