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Old 12-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #16
2whlrcr
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Ahhhhhh..........another oil thread.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:53 PM   #17
Tosh Togo
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Originally Posted by 2whlrcr View Post
Ahhhhhh..........another oil thread.

Nope... clutch thread.

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Old 12-18-2012, 04:14 PM   #18
Sting32
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Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post
rotorhead,
I did not mean to suggest a person shouldd ONLY run the recommended weight. There are many mitigating reasons to change viscositys and engine performace is one of them. Lighter weight oil will cause less friction and thus free up more useable HP.

As Sting says, what he uses works for him.

I would be curious though that Sting is recommending 0w-30 semi-syn and that may be a great oil, I like yamalube products, that is specifically a 4 stroke snowmobile engine oil....your GG 280 is a 2 stroke and the oil formulation is different....there are reasons why ALL of the oil companies designate 2t and 4t on their oils.....even though it is all in a gear box.

Besides a snowmobile does NOT have a wet clutch as a motorcycle {most of them anyway} does so that oil would not have the additives needed to help clutch life and performance.

I am sure the feel in his clutch is fine, but that is not the same as GOOD for the clutch.

This is not just coming from reading a manual....40 years of motorcycles, hot rods and parts counter work and even took a WEEK long course on oil the dumb manufacturer called OIL COLLEGE....lol to much.
Kellymac,

your acting anal about the subject a little. the factory with std literature used to CYA, states use oil mixed at 50:1, so does whatever the brand/version the oil you add to the fuel in a trials bike. that all is "official" but 99% of it is backed by legal team, not practical use, nor what trials teams or individual riders have shared...

here's 3 facts. in 2001, when I got the 1999 321 (there were more people that had been riding for years, on a website known as "TRIALS ACTION." shared info was to reduce the amount of ATF used in the transmission & clutch area (which are the same in gasgas bikes since at least 93, I have one). everyone was using ATF, instead of 500cc's we all went to 450. this reduced the "dragging clutch" in the older "then coined as the 'TXT' engines" and yeah it worked, also made the clutch grab quicker.

***But again this advice just came from people that were in the "know!" And we were not in a "casual dirtbike" forum, or sub forum, so we all also kind of knew it was TRIALS related info. I would never tell a person who was mending fences with his 321, and also riding like you would a xt350, to do what I do. Not even with gas oil mixes.

The preponderance of the evidence is, we USE and still USE ATF, we ride like we ride trials not pulling a truck up a steep grade behind the trials bikes. We change the oil very often, more often than most any user except maybe MX riders that tear down every race, or drag racers...

Plus, compared to 300 bucks to tear down a bike, if you paid shop rates, $2 quart of oil, I get almost 2 oil changes, that is less than $1 a month, that is friggin cheap insurance.

We've talked about this for 12 years now, 80:1 gas:oil ratio's are universally accepted "trials duty" mix. Some have ridden for years adding only 100:1 gas:oil and above. I can prove to you that 80:1 is god's plenty, as the exhaust is full of oil, throughout. Oil wasted into exhaust is "WASTED" and is a bitch to clean back to anything even close to like new, for performance et all... nuff said.

BUT NOT FOR THE OLDER AIR COOLED BIKEs, {with that I say only maybe}. I have a guy, he's been riding trials longer than I have, has ALWAYS mixed his gas, 120:1, even back in the 70's He's a machinist, he rebuilt more bikes and mods to trials bikes, than you can shake a stick at, he's never had any more wear than I had, nor others whom he was called upon to fix bikes... This is true, even though I was mixing my 70's era bikes at 32:1 in those days... FWIW, The oil not used, filled my exhaust parts, that was the ONLY difference... that and he was never caught abusing (WFO'ing a trials bike down the dirt road or what have you).

I like the properties of Synthetic Oils, so I use 100% in my fuels, with 100% NON ALCOHOL gas. I like to mix race fuel that is something like 116 octane with my pure no alcohol pump gas, at 1 gallon race fuel, with 2 gallons of my regular unleaded gas. it has worked FINE for quite a long damn time.

Anything else you want to assume we're dumb (according to manuals) to have tested and found to be good, widely accepted, for competition trials riders?

There are a $hitload of tricks out there, NOT RECOMMENDED by factory, because for many it would be akin to having a customer adapt a "hold my beer, watch this" attitude... this is kind of how the sport has progressed since 72 when I was too young to fix my own bikes.

I was not trying to sound like an A$$ with my reply, just being factual about this.

Sting32 screwed with this post 12-18-2012 at 04:24 PM
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:16 PM   #19
kellymac530
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You are not sounding like an a$$...I do not take online forums like that. I did not mean to sound anal either.

I guess my issue with your comments would be that you state..."we USE and still USE ATF" but then you say...."I use 0w-30 Semi synthetic" which is not a trans fluid at all.

Just to clarify, I LOVE synthetics as well. I use them in all of my race bikes. Not in cars, just too expensive and overkill for daily use stuff, but on tight tollerance stuff like motorcycle engines I use full or semi syn. I like semi because you get some of the natural oil qualities and the higher grade chemical properties of the synthetics....best of both worlds kinda deal.

You are right though that a trials bike is different than other machines. I have ridden a few and love them. I check in here from time to time just cause I love the dicipline. Maybe I should not have chimed in. My backround in mostly in MX, Dez, and Enduro. Yes I change my MX bike oil after every race weekend, 4 moto max if I am lazy. The heat and RPMs on an MX bike are definately higher so the foaming or frothing issue makes ATF a NO go on an MX bike, may be just fine on a trials bike though. I never said NOT to use it, if I did I am sorry, I meant that a person should always be well informed before using something other than what is reccomended and make the best choices.

I clearly also said that using something other than reccommended is common practice and often has benefits.

I just was raising a flag for the OP to make sure before he jumps....

Not being confrontational just asking- Are you also telling the OP that he should use 0w-30 4 stroke engine oil in his 2 stroke? {I am aware we are talking gearbox oil and not premix oil}
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:44 AM   #20
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Easy all, no need to go "anal" on anyone. I just want to make sure I don't screw up my bike.

Manual states one thing and reputable GasGas guy says something else.

Thanks for everyone's input.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:15 PM   #21
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post
You are not sounding like an a$$...I do not take online forums like that. I did not mean to sound anal either.

I guess my issue with your comments would be that you state..."we USE and still USE ATF" but then you say...."I use 0w-30 Semi synthetic" which is not a trans fluid at all.

Just to clarify, I LOVE synthetics as well. I use them in all of my race bikes. Not in cars, just too expensive and overkill for daily use stuff, but on tight tollerance stuff like motorcycle engines I use full or semi syn. I like semi because you get some of the natural oil qualities and the higher grade chemical properties of the synthetics....best of both worlds kinda deal.

You are right though that a trials bike is different than other machines. I have ridden a few and love them. I check in here from time to time just cause I love the dicipline. Maybe I should not have chimed in. My backround in mostly in MX, Dez, and Enduro. Yes I change my MX bike oil after every race weekend, 4 moto max if I am lazy. The heat and RPMs on an MX bike are definately higher so the foaming or frothing issue makes ATF a NO go on an MX bike, may be just fine on a trials bike though. I never said NOT to use it, if I did I am sorry, I meant that a person should always be well informed before using something other than what is reccomended and make the best choices.

I clearly also said that using something other than reccommended is common practice and often has benefits.

I just was raising a flag for the OP to make sure before he jumps....

Not being confrontational just asking- Are you also telling the OP that he should use 0w-30 4 stroke engine oil in his 2 stroke? {I am aware we are talking gearbox oil and not premix oil}
I am just glad that my post wasn't over the top, I almost deleted it, as I read it for the 3rd time, groaning that (oh boy, this will pi$$ someone off, tho I dont mean to). Kind of glad you got it, and that you understood what I cant put into words sometimes. that feeling like I want you to know it is not like some posts where some guy jumps in and says "try this" that those in that area of whatever it is, says "never heard of that."

I also commend the knowledge you have, I would expand on that, to learn more myself but that would create a post that is bigger than I can keep my ADHT mind on track for.

Nice to meet you both, lol. Motorhead and Kellymac.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:46 PM   #22
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I agree certain oils were made for a specified use. Most of the disagreement on oils for the gas gas stems from problems of friction plate swelling. The early years of the pro are to blame. Everyone was confused and scrambling to find solutions. For those that have no clue(you were not involed with this fiasco) we changed to thinner steel plates as the plates swelled. Instead of wearing the friction material grew. You did not hear that one in any oil seminar I`m sure.
There are other reasons automotive oil is used now. Or should we say 4 stroke, instead of 2 stroke transmission/clutch.
The newer pro`s actually lube the mains with transmission oils. That blows the crap out of which oil to use.Trials bikes work better with as light as velocity that we can get away with. Name one oil maker that makes an oil specified for trials engines. We usually ride around at 5-20 mph for short periods of time and change oil often. Being most bikes take less than 500cc one bottle is good for 2 changes. Not a sport the oil companies are making money on. So there is no great standard on oil.
For more fun why can we get away with 100:1 and not to many other engines. Hmmm because we ride slow and put little use on our motors in reality.
Mitch I like your choice of oils too, for a newer bike!
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rotorhead511 View Post
First, feel free to hit with a "did you try a search?" hammer on the topic.

My bike calls for 10w40 oil and the guy I bought it from thinks he used Amsoil. I read that ATF works best in these bikes and was wondering:

Has anyone had any experience with ATF?

Can I switch right now even after conventional oil has been used?

Is Amsoil blue? Blue is what's in the bike now.

Thanks all.
Any how your bike called for 5w30 not 10/40. Most ran ATF dex 3, some preferred type f. Anything will actually work. You will notice the difference in the clutch action. Change often and the worst(It`s a spanish piece of crap, they all break everything!) would be a new clutch pack. Good luck and have fun.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:21 AM   #24
Sting32
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Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post

Not being confrontational just asking- Are you also telling the OP that he should use 0w-30 4 stroke engine oil in his 2 stroke? {I am aware we are talking gearbox oil and not premix oil}
I didnt see this question, my bad.

Here's what we know. the bike and manuals from gasgas comes with motor oil in the transmission/clutch area (all the same area oil wise). Yes, I am suggesting he use it in his transmission like I do, at only a suggestion. They widely known alternative was ATF. Anywho, I like the yamalube better than ATF of any flavor, well except one...

*** I used GM autotrac 2 transmission fluid, for a 4 year period, at least up until 2 years ago, I think it was. BUT, GASGAS UK thinks they had preponderance of evidence, that particular oil was causing problem with many cluches on man bikes... They "had" a bulletin on uk's gasgas page somewhere, but I cannot find it now. So, when that came out and to our attentions, I also weaned myself off that stuff. BUT on at least 6 gasgas pro models I owned, I Never had a problem with that oil, but I am not one that will go back to $7 per quart oil, and against what GG UK believes (uk has more riders/bikes than USA, I think). So we tried a few other options, and like the Yamalube. I probably shouldn't have given my parts/mechanic's secret oil, LOL.

Oh, and BTW:
just because Yamalube "remarks on the label, that it is great for snow mobiles" as far as they are concerned, it is just marketing wise, this means little, other companies bottle up 0/30 tell you it is for lawnmowers in cold climates? Never the less... I use "sewing machine, lightweight oil" for many things, like on many other devices, from RC cars, to general purpose, oiling... Doesnt have to be a friggin "SEWING MACHINE" that I use it on... ya know.

If you are going to put the GASGAS TRIALS BIKES into a harder USE than our easy little "trials competitions" are going to put them in, then you need to pick a better duty oil. I say if you live and RIDE in the desert ON the equator, and plan to riding something like the "DAKAR RALLY" on these things, then you might need 20/50 in there to combat the way heat thins the oil? I dont know this but surely someone would know by now.

If you are in the states, probably get by just fine with ATF or 0w/30 motor oils, in trials modes.

How hot is it in New Mexico on trials days? It has been 106+F, at one trials this past summer here in Kansas, August I think it was, but that heat is a humid heat, causes more problems to riders than bikes... But I dont know, if it is 115+F in New Mexico, but dry... which is worse?

FWIW, and to start more arguements... I use a additive, water wetter (or its competitor) in my radiator with my 50/50 antifreeze mix.

Sting32 screwed with this post 12-21-2012 at 08:31 AM
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:13 PM   #25
lineaway
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Sting, I don`t know where the NM rant came from. I thought I said I liked your choice with the yamalube. What`s up?
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:13 AM   #26
2whlrcr
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It's 2F here with a foot of snow on the ground. What kind of oil should I use?
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:18 AM   #27
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It's 2F here with a foot of snow on the ground. What kind of oil should I use?
In those situations, I prefer to use Home Heating Oil.....
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:57 AM   #28
lineaway
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
I didnt see this question, my bad.

.

How hot is it in New Mexico on trials days? It has been 106+F, at one trials this past summer here in Kansas, August I think it was, but that heat is a humid heat, causes more problems to riders than bikes... But I dont know, if it is 115+F in New Mexico, but dry... which is worse?

FWIW, and to start more arguements... I use a additive, water wetter (or its competitor) in my radiator with my 50/50 antifreeze mix.
Actually in the summer months we ride in places like Taos ski valley, Sipapu ski resort, and Lake Fork canyon. All of which is over 8000 ft. Nice cool mornings and just slightly warm afternoons. Our beloved San Ysidro is basically off limits in the summer months. It would be like riding in a preheated oven being all rock! Not to mention the rattlers!
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:25 AM   #29
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Well after reading all this I decided to try some Yamaha 5w30 Utility oil for quads. Its not the snow mobile oil, previously had been running Napa brand atf F type. Was told by the guy behind the counter that it would take a thousand dollar order to get the snow mobile stuff (don't know whats up with that). Anyway my price on the oil was just four bucks so it was a not a deal breaker. After a short ride now I have bad clutch drag, this is on a new bike with less than 10 hours on it.

The type F atf feels a little to grabby especially in first gear and was looking to cure that with this oil. My main concerns were smooth clutch action and better overall longevity for the motor. Looks like I'm headed back to the atf but will try the dextron III stuff this time.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:34 AM   #30
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In those situations, I prefer to use Home Heating Oil.....
Or a good preservative oil.
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