2013 Dakar Pre-Event Discussion

[Tarheel Wheeler]

Originally Posted by doyle

No, as I understand it, they are developing a new/revised bike testing the EFI now. Coma is said to continue and then may move into a management or team owner role. KTM has been wildly successful in rally and they are keen to continue that but it remains to be seen how long they can hold off HRC or Husky. KTM is reacting a little late to developing new talent to replace Despres and Coma for the long term. They started with Aubert, Balooshi, and Zanol last year but I guess weren't happy with their progress. From what I gather, Aubert wanted to do Dakar again, but KTM suggested he pay the $100K customer price for a competitive ride. That says the world about how much they see him as a future rally rider.

We'll see how Caselli gets on with it. He may be great, I am not sure about his worldwide appeal for the future of KTM though. Rally is just not big enough in the US that I can see a US winner becoming a global star like Coma or Despres.

Wasn't Taddy Blazusiak hangin out on a Dakar bike last year. Talk about an Alien.

What about Bubba on a Rally bike...that would be a hoot!

I'm a huge rally fan, but don't see rally ever being extremely popular in the USA. The fact is it's a big boy (adult) sport that requires big boy dollars and requires big land. It's not very family oriented like MX or Enduro or Hare Scramble racing, with classes for the kids, the wife and the hubby.

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by Deadly99

Holy bromance Batman

If rmhrc628 ever gets a pit pass to visit the Dakar, Johnny JCR is gonna have to get a 200 meter restraining order put out on him by ASO...


JC: "Hey dude... can ya' get up off yer knees when were in the bivouac... it's getting kinda em'barrisin'..."

[PeteN95]

Taddy is awesome, but I don't think his trials/hard enduro backround translates well to rally. I think the American desert racers like Jonah, KC, and JC would make the transition the easiest? We have a lot of them, we just need to get them entered.

[rmhrc628]

Originally Posted by troy safari carpente

If rmhrc628 ever gets a pit pass to visit the Dakar, Johnny JCR is gonna have to get a 200 meter restraining order put out on him by ASO...


JC: "Hey dude... can ya' get up off yer knees when were in the bivouac... it's getting kinda em'barrisin'..."

Lol ya smartass. :)

[PeteN95]

Originally Posted by cyborg

Bummer about Husaberg pulling out, but then their cool bike the 70degree is now out of production. Thomas Berglund will still be running a Berg however. He has made a very trick rally kit for the 70degree bikes, though maybe a little late in the game with that.

The 70 degree berg's advantage was a short vertical moment of inertia allowing quick side to side transitions and making the bike feel lighter than it is, although it has a relatively high CoG. I don't think rally is it's best application, where you need to load the bike with a lot of weight up high, when it is already top heavy?

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by rmhrc628

I see a time when the crf450 base sled is used like the old xr600 sled was - in every dam event on the globe. To win. Safaris. Dakar. Anything else?

I think the new 450x base is going to be the start of the (long awaited) fightback by Honda for global domination managed and led by none other than JC himself.

I'd like to think that you are right mate (about the CRF/Rally spuring an XR-like resurgence in the popularity/usage in wider everyday applications... both racing and recreational)... but I think your looking at it through your rose coloured (HRC) glasses and just a touch high on those JCR feromones...

The XR was a success (in many facets of racing and recreational applications) that is pretty much unparalelled in modern times (old timers will claim that the ancient BSA singles and even the more contemporary DT1 Yamaha's excelled in any number of different racing or recreational applications... depending on wether the guards were up high... or down low and what type of tyres/gearing/exhaust were fitted). Sure there were XR's that won Oz Safari's (lots of them) Baja's (a good fistful of them), GNCC's, Hare n Hounds, Enduro's... hell, even some loonies stripped everything off them they could and raced them in 4 stroke MX (White Bros Nationals, Thumper Nat's etc.) and yeah, they did attain a great deal of success. And this led to a cult following out amongst club enduro riders, trail riders, play racers and budding adventure riders the world over... that still exists today (well over a decade after the last XR 600 R rolled out of the factory).

This "crossover" from competition to everyday joe racer is what set the bike apart... but what kept it there was it's relative (compared to todays workshop intensive 450cc competition enduro mounts) simplicity of ease and maintenence.

The HRC CRF 450 Rally is every bit as specialized and unobtainium enriched as the factory KTM 450 Rally. If they make a "customer spec" version available for other competition riders (like the KTM 450 RR) that too will be a fairly specialized, specific use type of motorcycle. For the CRF to gain a wider acceptance amongs the adventure/trail rider genre, it will need to undergo significant engine changes in order to meet the "everyday use criteria" that you "XR analogy" dictates. I am thinking total engine redesign in a slim chassis package... Think; DRZ400E engine in RMX 450 chassis... or similar.

HONDA have no 400 cc engine of this type... is it in the works, will HONDA make a CRF Rally styled production model... with a suitable dual pupose type motor... and "reinvent" the legendary XR 400 of the 21st century?

I dunno, maybe... but then again, I was still waiting on the 25th for santa to leave a KTM 690 Adventure Unicorn under my tree... sometimes I think they're just out to toy with our emotions mate...

[rmhrc628]

Troy

Honda has said as much haven't they? They ARE going to release special Crf rallye bolt on parts. If this eventuates, it's a major strategic improvement compared to the xr600 where Honda really left its development and enhancement to the aftermarket (as well as crazies like me who convert them to estart sleds with fcrs and usds).

I've mistaken the Crf rallye if what you say is true. I see the Crf rallye as far more obtainium than a one off ktm rallye.

I think it will go like this:

Rmhrc buys his ADR spec base sled crf450x. Then he buys rallye shop parts which are largely bolt on to suit his application (s) Backed up by the supply chain of the worlds largest motorcycle manufacturer.

The difference between my xr experience and now is HRC will clip the ticket on more parts. They will also fit far easier and more cleanly.

[too old]

Originally Posted by doyle

No, as I understand it, they are developing a new/revised bike testing the EFI now. Coma is said to continue and then may move into a management or team owner role. KTM has been wildly successful in rally and they are keen to continue that but it remains to be seen how long they can hold off HRC or Husky. KTM is reacting a little late to developing new talent to replace Despres and Coma for the long term. They started with Aubert, Balooshi, and Zanol last year but I guess weren't happy with their progress. From what I gather, Aubert wanted to do Dakar again, but KTM suggested he pay the $100K customer price for a competitive ride. That says the world about how much they see him as a future rally rider.

We'll see how Caselli gets on with it. He may be great, I am not sure about his worldwide appeal for the future of KTM though. Rally is just not big enough in the US that I can see a US winner becoming a global star like Coma or Despres.

Balooshi was a local UAE KTM effort only with locally raised money and Red Bull Arabia support; all as he was a UAE National.
A good rider and well known local sportsman but never even close to say Sam ( who was employed by KTM Dubai) best part of lap down on local MX, 10 mins or more on Baja and 20 mins on a rally stage.

All the money was raised locally and paid to big brother in full for the " ride". The local KTM agency drove the effort, which was also to be for 2013, but some local politics and management changes within the dealership put paid to their "Race to Dakar"

For 2012 Honda Rally Raid allowed Sam an entry, but again funded by a local Dubai based company and mainly as KTM Dubai just could not fund more than 1 rider for 2012 and as is the way around here (no arguments) that fell to Balooshi, pretty much the same as any nation/region if you are expecting local support?

After the 2012 effort fell short on mechanicals and accidents the HRC effort was spawned/announced and presumably based on the knowledge of his ability and potential Sam was retained.
Just unfortunately the run of bad luck has still dogged him!

Now, on KTM "head office" - I believe we can assume that they have a good idea of what they are doing (and has been said it certainly isn't broke, so doesn't need fixing!) and have a development (succession) plan or plan's and between the tight knit Austrian group of KTM, Red Bull and Kini, I'm pretty sure their vision is intact - they are just not spilling the beans as yet, but with the F5peculation being what it is we will have the plan on line soon

HRC may prove the benefits of EFI and as Doyle has advised this will be an area of focus - third party developed and purchased of course and tested and developed at someone else's expense

For now the KTM effort is still far from broke, yes it may be part bent at the moment, but hey that's Motorsport and sport in general - find me an annual, bi annual or 4 yearly event when one or more top names doesn't make it through injury - a normal event, but wow it has certainly caused a shit storm in F5land

[Tarheel Wheeler]

Originally Posted by PeteN95

Taddy is awesome, but I don't think his trials/hard enduro backround translates well to rally. I think the American desert racers like Jonah, KC, and JC would make the transition the easiest? We have a lot of them, we just need to get them entered.

And where did CD get his start on 2 wheels...Trials I do believe.

[D.T.]

Are we there yet??

[too old]

Originally Posted by D.T.

Are we there yet??

Would have been closer last year but nearly

[troy safari carpente]

Originally Posted by rmhrc628

The difference between my xr experience and now is HRC will clip the ticket on more parts. They will also fit far easier and more cleanly.

If HRC produce the "kit" as they have indicated (or provide it as a limited edition completed customer bike as per KTM 450 RR), your blueprint holds true yes - FOR A RALLY (still fairly maintenence intensive) APPLICATION... but underneath all the bells, whistles and bodywork/tanks is STILL a CRF 450 X motor, with it's valve service intervalls, one liter or so of oil and a (relatively) high state of tune - in terms of an "every day ride/dualsport application" type bike... and THAT is where your XR 600 comparison falls short of the mark.

YES, they may well make a "rally kit" for the CRF (a' la' JVO for Yamaha, Meca for KTM's and Honda, or even Safari for a number of different late model 450 bikes) and SURE given the HRC stamp will be on it, there is every chance it will be a well thought out, quality kit at that... "bolt on" as you say. But it still is a fairly niché oriented package (HRC's own PR has always referred in terms of a customer spec/race application kit they will make available for privateer competitors.... THIS is a far cry from a production line run, series production all seasons trailbike for the masses like the XR 600 was.

THAT is where your comparison of HRC CRF Rally vs XR 600 R peoples choice for over a decade is just wishfull thinking. IF Honda come up with a lower state of tune, increased service interval, dualsport 450cc derivative of the CRF engine, to base a new 450 trail model on (a' la DRZ 400E as I said before) then and only then, would I agree... yes the halcyon days of the 90's and Honda's get your rocks off in the outback fever on an XR (or CRF 450 E... as the case might be?) may well be with us once more.

As yet, all I have heard, read or seen is that HRC intend to make a customer spec' kit available... once they've got the factory 450 Rally up and flying, a spec' decided upon and can start the production of series parts... So by mid to later 2013, perhaps you will be able to buy your "kit" to make your own JC bromance homage replica... But any talk of an XR-like conquest of the world is - still - a long way off... no matter how red the blood in your veins run my friend.

[Gian]

Originally Posted by troy safari carpente

Think; DRZ400E engine in RMX 450 chassis... or similar.

I would have loved a similar combination... and they already have EFI on the 400 Quad, if needed

[oldgringo]

Here is a great link to El Comercio's coverage of the Dakar. (Lima newspaper)
http://elcomercio.pe/tag/340742/dakar-2013

[wrk2surf]

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