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Old 12-29-2012, 04:58 PM   #31
oregoncoast
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Roadracer, you bring up some really good points and you might be on to something about reducing some of the classes as there are a ton. The M1K is definitely a little more lax than lots of other desert races. However, this is by design, and it is why it is such a fun race. There are plenty of cut-throat desert races out there where guys on new bikes and in million dollar cars cans really test their mettle against other guys on proper modern race vehicles in real dusty, gritty, nerfing, dangerous passing and quit-before-the-trophy-truck runs you over action! However, in thoses races, vintage vehicles and moto's really don't have a place and that is one of the reasons the M1K exists.

Vegas To Reno comes to mind. Baja 1K too. Or probably any race in the BITD or SCORE/HDRA series.
Or if multi-day is your thing, the Dakar.

The reality is, I doubt Robby would have passed you that friendly if he wasn't just running the M1K as a shakedown for the Hummer for his last Dakar. Of course he won the overall, and created a new NORRA record in the process. But it begs the question; Was the challenge of being up against the James Garner 442 and the two SL350's the same as it is trading jabs with Stéphane Peterhansel and Cyril Depres in South America? Um, No. But, was it fun?? Oh yell Yes!!

I find myself thinking a lot about this. Mostly because I think a lot of folks, including myself, feel like they found a home with the M1K and see it as a place to still test themselves, and machines they can build/prep themselves, in a sanctioned Baja race without the the issues associated of entering a race where pro racers need to win because it is their livelihood, not just a hobby.

And it worries me that the very thing that drew people to this race, is the same thing they want to alter and change to suit their needs after they got to enjoy it. Reminds me of people that want to move into these small coastal Oregon towns because they love the small, quaint houses, local coffee shop and easy-going lifestyle. But once they move there, they raze the old cabin and put up a McMansion and applaud when the old coffee shop is bought out and replaced by a Starbucks.

If someone wants real competition in a desert race, they probably shouldn't be looking for it in a race where a lot of other people are riding 20, 30 or 40-year-old bikes and driving even older cars. The M1K is changing at lighting speed in its effort to get more entrants. It's totally cool that I was able to be on the same course and in the same bivouac with real stars like Robby and Malcolm, but I'm really glad that I was not a hinderance to their race and they were not dangerous to mine. Of course, I am not a real hard-core desert racer who craves fierce competition and has a Checkers or Stretcher mentality. Because if I was, this race probably wouldn't be the one I would race.

I love that NORRA not only welcomed me, but actually encouraged me to enter a rally car into the M1K, and I am sure that in 2014, there will be more similar vehicles entering. I would never even dream of entering this vehicle in say the Baja 1K. But in the M1K, it is a natural fit. To quote a NORRA official when I told them I would be entering a rally car this year, "The NORRA race is all about having fun and you are certainly making it just
that."

Not trying to stir any drama up, I just really love this race and am thankful for all of the people I have met while participating in it.


And I look forward to my Certificate of Participation and hug from Anders at the finish!! Which, by the way, is a lot less painful than a friendly rear-end nerf from Kent Kroeker


PS Don't sweat the Lowrance to Garmin conversion, we will be doing it too as we are running Garmin Montana's as we did the last two years.


oregoncoast screwed with this post 12-29-2012 at 05:05 PM
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:32 AM   #32
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I'm not really convinced vintage motorcycles are going to be a big part of the mexican 1000 going forward. New bikes are just too cheap. You could buy a top of the line ktm and put all the top of the line kit on it for $15k. When it costs $5k+ to run the race on a shoestring, thats pretty affordable.

Cars I can see being really different. A new car is huuuge money and then when you're done with it there is nothing you can do except wait for next year. At least with our bikes we keep riding in all sorts of events.

I saw you aren't keeping receipts on your subaru, but I'm sure that things is going to be money squared compared to your 350. I bet running the race is squared too. Looks fun though! I'd be petrified of driving too hard and breaking it on day one.

The main appeal of the mexican 1000 for me is that I can do it. And with very limited support. There is just no way to participate in the baja 1000 with as little off-road experience as I had on the budget I had.

Going forward am I interested in checking out v2r, the baja 500, etc? You bet. I hope to stay healthy enough to give it a try this year.

I don't think playing with the rules slightly is anything like your oregon analogy, but if this race gets significantly more popular, I think you should be prepared for it to go that way. You saw how different the car crowd was from the bike crowd. If you add all the fu money guys with their copters and huge support rigs, etc, etc, it's going to get out of reach for everyone.

If this is going to maintain it's fun feeling and continue to be a "club" event (vs a "pro" event), the rules need to be written to make sure a privateer can do it on a budget. Ban all the extra support that is unnecessary. Enforce the ban on on-course pitting. Ban pre-running, etc, etc. There is no taking money and politics out of racing, even amateur racing, but you can do a good job to minimize it and give everyone a chance.

The starting order, time cards, number of classes, etc, none of that has to do with how much money and support it costs to run the event and I don't see any of that changing the positive feelings.

I club road raced motorcycles for almost 10 years and ran a number of different pro events along the way and the feeling is night and day. Club racing is some of the most fun I've ever had with many great people. I cannot say that about the pro racing. It's a totally different scene. When I was still an amateur, I had an Aprilia RS250. One of the top guys at Loudon was Jeff Wood. I literally took his school and he was showing me how to go faster and was always quite accommodating and friendly. My first pro event (and it's a stretch to call it pro. it was small time) was at Pocono in the Aprilia Cup Series. I had never been to another track at that point and I was in no danger of beating anyone near the front of the grid. One lap Jeff Wood passed me just before the front straight and I tucked in behind him, hoping to go to learn how to go around the race track. Two corners into the lap, he saw I was following him and sat up and slowed down until I passed him!

I was sooooo much slower than him and I was not any danger what so every, but it was a serious race with money on the line and he wasn't fooling around anymore.

I even have a picture of it!


This is right after Jeff let me by.

Anyhow, the point being is that I understand exactly what you mean about maintaining the feel of the event, but the real thing NORRA needs to do to is build the rules so a privateer on a limited budget can compete with the big guys. The rest will take care of itself.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:48 AM   #33
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What is most amazing is that most of you fail to look at it from an organizers point of view. If what you're all saying really was better for the event, don't you think they would be doing it already? Having seen the Competitor side and the Organizer side, I can tell you it's a totally different focus.

The vintage class will stay, it's part of the history of the event and really does dovetail with the "Fun" factor and separating the MX1K from the SCORE events.
The different classes allow the average rider to be competitive and have a shot at some glory. The amateur racers with the attitude of a pro racer want fewer classes and the real pro racers don't seem to care(Overall or nothing). The organizers job is to try and make the most people happy, which means appealing to the masses and keeping the event funded. Of course, sometimes they need to shoot in the dark a little and try new things.

For me, I'm just going down to have a vacation and ride my bike a little
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:28 PM   #34
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For me, I'm just going down to have a vacation and crash my bike a little
There, I fixed it for you
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:51 PM   #35
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Just to continue stirring the pot.

Vintage racing is was this race was all about. How could Mr. Perlman put on a race for vintage vehicles to run in and have a shit load of fun? The easiest was was to do it as a rally. Lots of long paved non-timed sections, no course marking, and no pre-running. The problem was that there just wasn't enough race ready vintage cars & bikes out there to make it economically feasible. Additional classes were opened up to attract more entries. Some weirdo fuel fuel class, a class for big "Adventure" bikes and a class for "modern day" race cars and pre-runners. First year was ton's of fun and lots of great old cars and vet drivers and riders but still not enough to really make it worth while for the promoters. Next 2 years continue to open it up more for additional non-vintage stuff and Dust to Gloryites, still trying to make a buck. There continues to be "Country Clubber" car guys who are spending money to restore old cars and there are also more of them running their pre-runners. Rubby shows up with his full blown state of the art Dakar race car and he shares the driving with his dad and Clyde Stacy. The further they get away from vintage classes and closer to a rally the faster and more serious this race will become.

This year, I'm personally involved with 3 cars that haven't run this event before. One is the classic Scoop Vessels BFG Blazer with a multiple Baja 1000 winner (both bikes and cars) as a driver, one is a 4 -seater buggy with another multiple Baja 1000 winner driving his wife, best friend and his wife, and the other is a former 2 time Baja winning full blown Trophy Truck with a driver who simply wants more seat time. Additionally, the classic Bob Gordon entry will once again be raced as hard as it was when it won the 1000 in 98 and the last 3 years in NORRA. The same with the Blazer and the Trophy Truck. Tim & Troy Herbst will be racing both of their Mike Smith built pre-runners and I know that they will be at about a 70 to 80% pace of a Trophy Truck. Its not going to get any more relaxed out there on the course that's for sure.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:43 PM   #36
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I am talking MOTO's: IMO: This event is way more fun then the Score Baja1000 at this stage in my life (old guy)
The further they get away from vintage classes and closer to a rally the faster and more serious this race will become.
I think there can ALWAYS be a Vintage class
This is the ONLY Multiple Day Event on the West coast and it is Growing!!
More and more racers will start to show up if it keeps moving forward.
Ban all the extra support that is unnecessary.
Ban pre-running
Age class 16-20 yrs old ( lets start growing some young new Rally racers)

There is no taking money and politics out of racing, even amateur racing, but you can do a good job to minimize it and give everyone a chance.

BAJA is a DRUG !!!!!!
and I am an ADDICT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:11 PM   #37
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There, I fixed it for you
Well that wasn't very nice You never crash though....oh wait
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:17 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
Ban pre-running
Speaking as merely an observer and an east coast non-baja guy and definitely not as any kind of a NORRA representative: ok, that sounds like it would reduce costs for the racers and the rules would be pretty easy to write, but my question is "How do you police this rule?" Do any other desert racing organizations do this? Because from my perspective (again, an east coast non-desert racer) it seems like it would be impossible to keep track of who went out into the desert.

In rally in the US, we have an equivalent rule prohibiting any practice or scouting on the roads 90 days in advance. But these are very well defined roads, often with gates, and limited access, and people living on the roads leading to the stages that would see anyone driving there. But man... the desert is just so... BIG!

There's two steps to figuring out the answer, I guess: first, figure out if it's possible with unlimited resources. If it is, then figure out if it's doable with the resources NORRA has. If either the first part or second part ends up at "No" then the issue is moot: it would only lead to rumors and bad feelings of people who were thought to have pre-run, might have pre-run, were seen pre-running, or were heard about pre-running from a third party.

It might be easier just to promote the idea that it's not needed. I don't think Octavio pre-ran, and Gilkey certainly didn't, so there's your top two bikers.

Cheers,
Anders
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:18 PM   #39
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we need a senior class (40's) too ..
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:33 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Anders Green View Post
Speaking as merely an observer and an east coast non-baja guy and definitely not as any kind of a NORRA representative: ok, that sounds like it would reduce costs for the racers and the rules would be pretty easy to write, but my question is "How do you police this rule?" Do any other desert racing organizations do this? Because from my perspective (again, an east coast non-desert racer) it seems like it would be impossible to keep track of who went out into the desert.

In rally in the US, we have an equivalent rule prohibiting any practice or scouting on the roads 90 days in advance. But these are very well defined roads, often with gates, and limited access, and people living on the roads leading to the stages that would see anyone driving there. But man... the desert is just so... BIG!

There's two steps to figuring out the answer, I guess: first, figure out if it's possible with unlimited resources. If it is, then figure out if it's doable with the resources NORRA has. If either the first part or second part ends up at "No" then the issue is moot: it would only lead to rumors and bad feelings of people who were thought to have pre-run, might have pre-run, were seen pre-running, or were heard about pre-running from a third party.

It might be easier just to promote the idea that it's not needed. I don't think Octavio pre-ran, and Gilkey certainly didn't, so there's your top two bikers.

Cheers,
Anders
You can't ban "pre-running" on "public" roads/access. If NORRA doesn't release the actual exact course until the road books are handed out how could someone technically be "pre-running"??? Between races much of the race course is common used playground or access roads. If caught being on what will be used as race course the week before the race, all I have to say is: "I didn't know it was going to be race course because it ain't marked!"
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:37 PM   #41
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"How do you police this rule?"
.

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Easy NORRA hires me to ride Baja all year and make sure non of these cheathers are pre-running
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:40 PM   #42
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You can't ban "pre-running" on "public" roads/access. If NORRA doesn't release the actual exact course until the road books are handed out how could someone technically be "pre-running"??? Between races much of the race course is common used playground or access roads. If caught being on what will be used as race course the week before the race, all I have to say is: "I didn't know it was going to be race course because it ain't marked!"
I think ALL pre running and Air support should be BANNED!! at ALL OFF ROAD RACES!

and YES it can be done!
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:42 PM   #43
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Easy NORRA hires me to ride Baja all year and make sure non of these cheathers are pre-running
Yea, sign me up for that!
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:59 PM   #44
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Perhaps the new SCORE will see the benefits of a multi-day rally and do one of their own for the pro guys and all of you all-out fast guys on modern bikes and trophy trucks that want a mini-Dakar and all that goes with it.

Roadracer - the reason to run a vintage bike or car has nothing to do with costs or wanting to win. It's about celebrating and reliving the past of off-road racing. That is why the M1K is going through a transformation which just may end the vintage and pure "fun" aspect that was its initial intention. Because the more trophy trucks that enter, the more the course is going to look like the Baja 1K course, and the vintage bikes and cars just can't do the 4-foot whoops.

I see more and more people resurrecting vintage cars to run specifically in this race, but as the number of modern entrants increase, if care is not take to preserve the vintage aspect, it will become simply a multi-day Baja 1000. And that would probably be a very popular route and NORRA might just see the numbers grow. But at what cost??

Running a vintage vehicle in a multi-day, 1200 mile race, and just finishing is a challenge and huge accomplishment in itself. It becomes more about keeping the vehicle moving forward and still making some decent time. This is just a totally different experience than running something modern or built for this type of racing, where you can actually win the overall. Some like it, some don't. Again, apples and oranges, which is why having both types in the same race and trying to grow numbers is going to prove to be a real challenge for NORRA without alienating either group.


I don't know. I'm just glad I am getting to experience it while it is still a fun race for anyone who does not live in SoCal or the southwest and who does not desert race for a living. And I hope I can still run it again on my SL350 when when I'm done with the rally car fun.

And is far as pre-running; It doesn't bother me a bit if everyone else does it, because I am there for my own experience. You can prerun the course 10 times and still have a mechanical that puts you out on day 1. Again, the guys looking for the overall win are the ones who will prerun a multi-day, fun-paced rally, which many pro riders told me is similar to their pre-running experiences in the first place
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:02 PM   #45
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Perhaps the new SCORE will see the benefits of a multi-day rally and do one of their own for the pro guys and all of you all-out fast guys on modern bikes and trophy trucks that want a mini-Dakar and all that goes with it.
Roger has been in Lima since the 26th...


And I'm wondering why there's the subject of air support. I know the McMillins had a fixed-wing 2 years ago but have there been others? Any helo's used at Mex1k? I don't think so.
And as for banning ait support, no way would I ever suggest that unless the promoter had at least a few Helo's in the air. Fixed wing can only relay info via radio (just as McMillins did 2 years ago when a biker hit a ranch truck). So if teams have a helo that's great because there's a possibility it will come in handy to another team. Even the JCR helo has stopped to check on non-team riders at the B.1000.
.

bajaboundmoto screwed with this post 12-30-2012 at 05:07 PM
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