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Old 12-31-2012, 06:06 PM   #31
mikem9 OP
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OP here: I didn't write the article, just posted here for discussion. BTW - it's fine with me to discuss carbon footprint, erosion, sound issues whatever. I find it all interesting.
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostback View Post
fast forward 30 years.

If gas is $14 per gallon or is rationed, there is a lot of fun that could be had for a DS that gets 75 mpg (125 four strokes for example). It might be time to think ahead about costs and carbon footprint and I think there really is a place for smaller, but fun, bikes in that equation.
In 30 years they will probably have cages that get over 70 mpg. The VW TDI can get an average of 48mpg right now...more than most bikes, right now.
Another thing to factor in is tires. With my bike it will take 20 pair to get the same 60,000 miles with four tires on my cage.
When gas is, or becomes rationed you can bet money most folks wont be able to or wont be allowed to, go on too many joy rides. That will be the furthest thing from their minds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
compacting the soil can do more damage in some places, its relative to the situation, yes, sometimes a foot trail is more impacting than an ATV trail. In general, equestrian trails are the most impacting. Trail improvements can make a big difference on impacts
Theres no reason our park lands can't be multi-use

Comparing foot traffic to a motorcycle or ATV is a pretty big stretch.

I've never seen a hiker roost.
I can't ever see a foot trail torn up as much as a bike or ATV trail. I've hiked many foot trails and hiked foot trails that bikes and atv's poached. There is significant damage from the machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo
Theres no reason our park lands can't be multi-use
Ummm, yes there is...

Quote:
A national park is a park, in use for conservation purposes. Often it is a reserve of natural, semi-natural, or developed land that a sovereign state declares or owns. Although individual nations designate their own national parks differently, there is a common idea: the conservation of wild nature for posterity and as a symbol of national pride
That's why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_park


For those who wish to debate loud pipes...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=682641
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:49 PM   #33
RayAlazzurra
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Carbon?

If we want to sequester carbon one of the best things we could do would be to clear cut all the old growth forest and use the wood in some type of permanent structures. Replace the old trees with fast growing species that pull a bunch of CO2 out of the atmosphere. This solution rarely gets discussed because it sucks. All outdoors enthusiasts would ideally be united in the goal of preserving habitat and limiting development--instead we fight each other. If we want to take the thread way off target we could discuss the morality of using fossil fuels for recreation. Is it ok to use the most precious commodity we have just for fun? All of our food and the distribution of food depends on a finite resource. Are we fools? Future generations may judge us harshly, but on a perfect day in the mountains riding this is the last thing on my mind.
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:15 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayAlazzurra View Post
If we want to sequester carbon one of the best things we could do would be to clear cut all the old growth forest and use the wood in some type of permanent structures. Replace the old trees with fast growing species that pull a bunch of CO2 out of the atmosphere. This solution rarely gets discussed because it sucks.
What "old growth forests"? We cut them all down back at the turn of the twentieth century.
Cutting down all the trees and replacing them with fast growing trees? The timber industry already does this...for their profit.
Personally, I've never heard of this solution.
Your talking solely about air pollution. Scrubbers on all factory smoke stacks would be a good start for that.
What we are talking about, and I think the person who wrote that blog is mistaken with is...


Quote:
Most of the carbon footprint emissions for the average U.S. household come from "indirect" sources, i.e. fuel burned to produce goods far away from the final consumer. These are distinguished from emissions which come from burning fuel directly in one's car or stove, commonly referred to as "direct" sources of the consumer's carbon footprint.[4]
The blog is focusing on direct sources and not taking in the whole picture, hence my original comments towards the blogs author.

Quote:
Ways to Reduce The Carbon Footprint

The most common way to reduce the carbon footprint of humans is to reduce, reuse, and recycle. This can be done by using reusable items such as thermoses for daily coffee or plastic containers for water and other cold beverages rather than disposable ones. If that option isn't available, it is best to properly recycle the disposable items after use. When one household recycles at least half of their household waste, they can save 2,400 pounds of carbon dioxide annually[23][unreliable source?].
Another easy option is to drive less. By walking or biking to the destination rather than driving, not only is a person going to save money on gas, but they will be burning less fuel and releasing fewer emissions in to the atmosphere. However, if walking is not an option, one can look into carpooling or mass transportation options in their area.
Yet another option for reducing the carbon footprint of humans is to use less air conditioning and heating in the home. By adding insulation to the walls and attic of one's home, and installing weather stripping or caulking around doors and windows one can lower their heating costs more than 25 percent. This helps because it reduces the amount of energy needed to heat and cool the house. One can also turn down the heat while they are sleeping at night or away during the day, and keep temperatures moderate at all times. Setting the thermostat just 2 degrees lower in winter and higher in summer could save about 2,000 pounds of carbon dioxide each year [24][unreliable source?].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_footprint

Alright, I've got a beer calling me.

Happy new year all you FF's!
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:03 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwalsh View Post
Comparing foot traffic to a motorcycle or ATV is a pretty big stretch.

I've never seen a hiker roost.
I can't ever see a foot trail torn up as much as a bike or ATV trail. I've hiked many foot trails and hiked foot trails that bikes and atv's poached. There is significant damage from the machines.

if you roost a trail close to a wetland sure, it has more impact, when its further away and there is minimal chance of sediments reaching wetlands and streams, whats the big deal ? a little torn up soil doesn't necessarily hurt anything

on the other hand, the compacted foot trail won't let rainwater seep in and increases the rate of runoff causing more erosion downslope and more untreated stormwater and sediments reaching the wetlands
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:24 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayAlazzurra View Post
Replace the old trees with fast growing species

fast growing small trees do not grow as much as and old tree

old growth giant sequoia grows more in volume than any other tree on earth

a " ring on a white pine that was 10 feet tall one tear and 15 feet tall the next puts on a few pounds off wood in growth, the giant sequoia can put on a ring only 1/16" thick and puts on several tons of wood in growth, that "fast growing"pine can grow for 200 years and still will never catch up with the growth on a giant sequoia, in fact the disparity will become even greater, the big tree has more mass, more leaves/needles, more co2 exchange whenever you campare any older larger tree to a smaller younger tree

a 1' tall seedling can grow 300% and grow to be 4 feet tall in a year or the 3500 year old 2100 ton sequoia might only grow 0.1%, it still puts on 2 tons more biomass than the "fast growing" seedling
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:46 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwalsh View Post
Theres no reason our park lands can't be multi-use

Ummm, yes there is...
Quote:
A national park is a park, in use for conservation purposes. Often it is a reserve of natural, semi-natural, or developed land that a sovereign state declares or owns. Although individual nations designate their own national parks differently, there is a common idea: the conservation of wild nature for posterity and as a symbol of national pride
That's why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_park
instead of quoting wiki in a generic national parks around the globe statement, maybe ya should go to the .gov website and get the real info instead of something some wannabe posted on wiki

there are may multi use programs in place, at national parks, and even more in national forests
http://www.fs.fed.us/passespermits/

http://www.nps.gov/index.htm
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:13 AM   #38
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If these so called enviro-conservationists actually went out in the woods with us, they would learn that we actually do much more to protect the planet than they ever will. If these weak whiney-babies would get a dirt bike and ride with us, they would have a ton of fun, learn that we clean up campgrounds, pick up trash, control erosion, build environmentally safe and sustainable trails, and do it more efficiently with motorcycles than they ever could on foot or on a mtn bike.

By the way, I AM QUALIFIED TO JUDGE ON THIS ISSUE because I hike, mtn bike, and conserve while doing it all! I can get much more done to pick up trash, clean up a campground, repair erosion, mingle with wildlife, while getting out there on a motorcycle than they will ever hope to accomplish on foot or on a bicycle!

How do they get their lazy butts outside in nature to experience it? In a big, heavy, polluting, inefficient automobile which uses far more fossil fuel and pollutes far more than my little motorcycle. I can ride my bike to a trail system while getting great mileage and polluting far less than even a hybrid car. Once I get there on my bike, I can move around and find what needs to be done and do it! These idiots cry about our behavior while they sit in their air conditioned/heated office and accomplish nothing more than making our life miserable.

Hell, we off road riders are actually kicking these whiney enviros out of the way so WE can get some environmental sustainment done! We are making the natural world a better place IN SPITE OF THESE FOOLS!
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:07 AM   #39
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In 20 years we will likely be all riding OR machines with electric powerplants. The greenies will still hate us because they can hear our shock absorbers clunk, our chains rattle or smell the heat from our electric motor as we pass by. Their hate is just hate! I trust them to evolve until we are all extinct. They like nothing that we do including shorter /modified tire knobs, quieter engines/ mufflers, tread lightly and pack -in and pack-out campaigns. They hate that we have fun and can cover so much ground and see what they see in a day too. This will not change no matter what!
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgas View Post
How do they get their lazy butts outside in nature to experience it? In a big, heavy, polluting, inefficient automobile which uses far more fossil fuel and pollutes far more than my little motorcycle. I can ride my bike to a trail system while getting great mileage and polluting far less than even a hybrid car. Once I get there on my bike, I can move around and find what needs to be done and do it! These idiots cry about our behavior while they sit in their air conditioned/heated office and accomplish nothing more than making our life miserable.

Hell, we off road riders are actually kicking these whiney enviros out of the way so WE can get some environmental sustainment done! We are making the natural world a better place IN SPITE OF THESE FOOLS!
Well stated. Good on you for your stewardship. You just described my left wing hippie cousin to a T. He and his ilk want to save the planet by writing letters and marching on Washington. They don't recreate, hike, volunteer, or do jack shit to make a real difference in the woods. Why? Because they are too busy spreading propaganda and protesting. Now he has become what he reviled against for so many years, a two time parent (unmarried of course), a multi property landlord, a (gasp) capitalist.:loll
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:41 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgas View Post
... I hike, mtn bike, and conserve while doing it all! I can get much more done to pick up trash, clean up a campground, repair erosion, mingle with wildlife, while getting out there on a motorcycle than they will ever hope to accomplish on foot or on a bicycle! ...
Good for you - and I really mean that - Well done!

Sadly, my friend, you and your ilk are in the great minority. Most people enjoying the great outdoors courtesy of a motorized vehicle make bigger messes, clean up no more, and burn a great deal more fuel because they are hauling their offroad toys on trailers and in large trucks
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:11 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
Good for you - and I really mean that - Well done!

Sadly, my friend, you and your ilk are in the great minority. Most people enjoying the great outdoors courtesy of a motorized vehicle make bigger messes, clean up no more, and burn a great deal more fuel because they are hauling their offroad toys on trailers and in large trucks
I have to disagree

most people's perception of environmental damage is what is screamed at them by environmentally uneducated media and zealots who know just enuf buzz words to be dangerous

the hugest examples of erosion I have ever seen are not due to man, but nature

I don't think there is any difference between offroaders hauling toys or hikers travelling in cages to get to the mountains, for both, the largest impact is the impervious parking lot they park in, increasing rate of runoff, swells streams and less recharge to aquifer
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:27 AM   #43
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Trees and carbon

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
fast growing small trees do not grow as much as and old tree

old growth giant sequoia grows more in volume than any other tree on earth
Thanks for the clarification. I read the idea about trees in an old Nat. Geo article about the carbon cycle. The author may have been mistaken. The idea was that trees could be harvested and stored in mines, or other places where they would be prevented from decomposing and returning carbon to the cycle. The author asserted that fast growing trees would be best for this purpose. Another idea was to create algae blooms in the oceans by seeding with iron.

When we focus on carbon instead of biodiversity and habitat preservation we get some rather odd ideas like these. On the topic of the original thread I do feel good about using a motorcycle for traveling. I have a company provided pickup that keeps track of fuel consumption. I looked at the dash the other day and noticed that I had burned over 2500 gallons of gas in less than a year. My 250 Sherpa gets about 70 mpg and saves a bunch of gas in comparison, but it cannot cary all my tools. I am still using, or perhaps wasting a precious resource when I ride the Sherpa, but at least I am using a bit less. I'm not so much concerned about the CO2 emissions as the scarcity of fuel. Someone posted about future electric vehicles. It may be possible that horses and camels are in our future instead. As duel sport environmentalists we are trying to have it all. We want our fun and we want to save gas. It won't save the world, but it helps a wee bit. Btw. We saw the Sequoia groves in Yellowstone last summer. Incredible! Should be on everyones bucket list.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:12 PM   #44
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I think the math in this discussion doesn't start with realistic assumptions. When people go hiking it's often in groups. Put 2 hikers in a car that gets 30mpg and you have the equivalent of 60mpg per person. Or 3 in a SUV that gets 20mpg. That puts those about even with the typical motorcycle.

These people may all commute one-per-vehicle during the week, but I usually see groups getting out of each car at a trail head.

The MPG race for motorcycles and hikers looks like a wash to me.

Bicyclists, in my experience, are more likely to arrive one-per-car.

Do my observations or math match what others see?
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:32 PM   #45
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On this side of the globe, it's the noise issue with motorcycles, more than anything else. Near where i live, they clossed a moto cross track due to complaint's from folks living nearby. Enduro is very popular here, i can't remember ever reading an adverse report from greenie's or anyone else for that matter. Erosion isn't a problem here, the way it is in my other homeland, Australia, where the top soil is so thin, causing all sorts of strife. As for the carbon footprint, i join the guy with VW TDI, i've got a Skoda tdi, cheaper to run than my 990adv, doesn't put a smile on my face like the 990 though
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