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 01-03-2013, 12:47 PM #91 SkiFastBadly A beer? Yes, please     Joined: Mar 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA Oddometer: 1,542 This whole thread reminds me of a guy I used to play golf with, to give himself a psychological advantage, on the way to the first tee he'd ask "Tell me, do you inhale or exhale on your backswing?" __________________ The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw. 2008 Buell Ulysses 2008 Triumph Scrambler 2004 HD Heritage Softail
01-03-2013, 12:53 PM   #92
dwoodward

Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
Oddometer: 5,736
Quote:
 Originally Posted by SkiFastBadly This whole thread reminds me of a guy I used to play golf with, to give himself a psychological advantage, on the way to the first tee he'd ask "Tell me, do you inhale or exhale on your backswing?"
The correct answer is one of "yes", "no", or a confident reply that is the opposite of the normal answer (inhale, I expect).

A student once asked me if, approaching a curve, I begin braking or downshifting first. Couldn't ride for squat for two weeks after that...

01-03-2013, 01:52 PM   #93
Boon Booni
Red Clay Halo

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Richmond, Va
Oddometer: 13,794
Quote:
 Originally Posted by dwoodward Is that your final answer? If I lean my 200 pounds (self, riding gear, helmet) ten degrees left, my 600 pound FJR is going to lean ten degrees right? Or perhaps some amount that may differ, depending on bike weight, rider weight, distance between each CoG and the pivot point- but enough to stay balanced?

Your 200lb self moving 10 degrees left will move your 600 lb bike about 3.3 degrees right. That's equal and opposite. Now if your bike weighed 200lb then your 10 degree shift would move the bike 10 degrees the opposite direction.

 01-03-2013, 05:04 PM #94 Racer111v Studly Adventurer     Joined: Aug 2011 Location: Hudson, NH Oddometer: 860 Lots of turning with out counter steering......yes I know this is impossible. * not me in the vid* Racer111v screwed with this post 01-03-2013 at 08:43 PM Reason: not me in the vid
 01-03-2013, 05:17 PM #95 David R I been called a Nut Job..     Joined: Oct 2009 Location: In Da Swamps of WNY Oddometer: 2,586 Just a thought. Going around a sharp right curve Bike is leaned WAAAY over. To right the bike (stop turning and go straight) do you turn the wheel to the left? It seems this would put the bike less under you and go deeper into the turn. Turn the bars to the right and the bike will go back under your body towards an upright and straight position. David Enjoying the conversation. __________________ 2012 R1200R ! 2000 R1100RT (parts for sale!), 1976 R75/6, 2014 Vulcan 900 Trike There is a seat for everyone.
01-03-2013, 05:37 PM   #96
DAKEZ

Joined: Mar 2007
Location: OR
Oddometer: 19,747
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Racer111v Lots of turning with out counter steering......yes I know this is impossible.
Actually No there wasn't.

Every moving turn in that video was initiated by a counter-steer to upset the balance of the bike. Thank you for proving it.
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DAKEZ screwed with this post 01-03-2013 at 06:34 PM

01-03-2013, 07:15 PM   #97
Jedl

Joined: Jun 2010
Location: New England
Oddometer: 115
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Racer111v Lots of turning with out counter steering......yes I know this is impossible.
Nice vid, looks like a fun ride. But back to technicalities . . . . did you read the article? I know you said that you weren't a physicist but did you read the article? Did it not make sense?

As a trials rider you know better than many about manipulating you and your bike's combined center of gravity. How do you think that center of gravity is moved from one place to another relative to the contact patches, if not through steering ??

I saw a shit ton of steering input in the vid. Why all the steering input when you were making such small turns ? Hint: It's about moving the COG, either closer to the contact patches (to make a slower turn) or to the other side of the contact patches to turn in the other direction. Counter-steering is just manipulating the COG by steering the contact patches relative to the COG. If the COG is to the left of the contact patches and you need it to the right of the contact patches you have to move the contact patches to the left faster than the bike can fall to the left. That's counter-steering. It's not rocket science.

cheers,

01-03-2013, 07:23 PM   #98
Jedl

Joined: Jun 2010
Location: New England
Oddometer: 115
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Racer111v Lots of turning with out counter steering......yes I know this is impossible.
Let's try this another way, . . . have you ever tried to balance a broom upside down with your hand? You know when the broom sweeper is pointing to the sky and the end of the broom handle is in your open, upward-facing palm?

That's called an inverted pendulum. In order to keep the broom standing up (balanced), you have to keep moving your hand (the end of the broom handle) such that the broom keeps trying to fall in the direction you want it to fall. If it starts to fall too far to the left, you quickly move your hand to the left faster than the COG of the broom is moving left. Done correctly, you'll pass the COG and the broom will start to fall to the right. At which point you'll move you hand quickly to the right (past the COG) to stop the broom from falling to the right.

This is exactly how we balance a bike, any type of bike. Do you see how these things, the balanced broom and balanced bike are both inverted pendulums? Now replace your palm with the bike's contact patches. We have to move the contact patches further out than the COG to stop the fall. At which point the bike starts to fall in the other direction and we again have to move the contact patches further out than the COG to stop that fall. I hope you can see the analogy.

cheers,

As we ride, at some point the bike will start to fall to the left (meaning the COG is to the left of the line between the contact patches), in order to stop the fall we over-steer to the left until the line between the contact patches is to the left of the COG (stopping the fall to the left and likely starting a fall to the right). Since the COG is now to the right of the contact patches, the bike starts to fall to the right. In order to stop the fall to the right we have to over-steer the contact patches past the COG, . . when the bike starts to fall left again.

Can you do a track stand on your trials bike? A track stand is where you are on a small incline and the front wheel is turned sharply to one side (let's say left for this example)?

If you start to lose balance towards the left (falling leftward), all you have to do is move forward slightly to regain balance. If you start to lose balance rightward (falling rightward), all you have to do is roll backwards slightly to regain balance. Because the front wheel is turned sharply to the left - moving forward moves the contact patches to the left of the COG. And moving backwards moves the contact patches to the right of the COG. There's no additional movement of the handlebar, but you are still steering the contact patches from one side of the COG to another. And that's the definition of counter-steering.

Jedl screwed with this post 01-03-2013 at 07:45 PM

 01-03-2013, 07:30 PM #99 BanjoBoy Studly Adventurer     Joined: Mar 2009 Location: Northern CA Oddometer: 878 Anybody dumb 'nuf ta think you don't turn a bike by counter steer'in should ride down their favorite twisties w/ no hands. Sure you can do some sweepers, no handed, but ta flick a bike (Ride proper like) you gotz ta countersteer. __________________ 2007 FJR1300 2007 FZ6 (Dirt bike)
01-03-2013, 08:04 PM   #100
RVDan

Joined: Jun 2010
Oddometer: 2,691
Please, somebody build a steering deflection gauge, hang a GoPro over it, mount another camera in a chase car, go for a ride. Time synch the videos and play them split screen so once and for all it can be seen what is really going on.

I'm pretty sure I counter steer to dump the center of mass to the inside of the turn and then steer back to get through the turn, but it happens so fast I don't think about it.
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Quote:
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01-03-2013, 08:09 PM   #101
kiwi_outdoors

Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Oddometer: 114

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RVDan Please, somebody build a steering deflection gauge, hang a GoPro over it, mount another camera in a chase car, go for a ride. Time synch the videos and play them split screen so once and for all it can be seen what is really going on. I'm pretty sure I counter steer to dump the center of mass to the inside of the turn and then steer back to get through the turn, but it happens so fast I don't think about it.

there was a link to it on the ancient EX250 site ninja.org or whatever

01-03-2013, 08:13 PM   #102
Jedl

Joined: Jun 2010
Location: New England
Oddometer: 115
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Racer111v Lots of turning with out counter steering......yes I know this is impossible.
I'll point out some of the more obvious counter-steering events in your video so you can see them for yourself (There are too many to count them all):

@0:09 sec, just as you start rolling you counter-steer to the left to steer towards the dirt track on the right.

@ 0:11 sec, you clearly counter-steer to the right to start your turn to the left @ 0:12 sec

@ 0:21 sec, just as you near the top of the rise you counter-steer to the right to initiate the turn towards the left at the top of the rise

So there's three counter steering events in the first 12 seconds and these are only the obvious ones. In actuality there are many, many more that are too subtle to prove clearly. A video editing app would allow greater accuracy relative to the timing, I just used the YouTube counter to determine these. The times are not very accurate but I could follow those counters and see the events over and over again.

I envy you have the trials bike and a nice spot to ride it.

 01-03-2013, 08:34 PM #103 Racer111v Studly Adventurer     Joined: Aug 2011 Location: Hudson, NH Oddometer: 860 I guess it's a matter of my perception. When I look at that vid I never see the front tire turn left to initiate turning right. That is also the feel I get on the bike. When I want to turn right I turn the front tire (bars) right. There are obviously other things happening at that time , Leaning, body placement, etc... but I don't conceder those under the definition of counter steering. On my street or road race bike I am instantly aware that I turn left to go right. I see and feel it. That is what my definition of counter steering has always been. I have read that definition before, but it is Wikipedia after all.
01-03-2013, 08:41 PM   #104
Racer111v

Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Hudson, NH
Oddometer: 860
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jedl I envy you have the trials bike and a nice spot to ride it.
Sorry, but not me in the vid. My first time embeding a vid, it's from YT, I didn't realize it would be so stripped down.

 01-03-2013, 09:50 PM #105 Idle Studly Adventurer   Joined: Jun 2011 Location: Northern California Oddometer: 719 Watch the first few seconds of this vid and then come back and tell us what's going on in the vid. Btw, can one of yff embed this vid please? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chWY6...e_gdata_player Imma gonna go watch the rest now.. I stopped it to share it when the front came up.

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