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Old 01-14-2013, 02:52 PM   #316
_cy_ OP
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NTSB to probe batteries, wiring in Dreamliner fire



Fire trucks surround a Japan Airlines Boeing 787 Dreamliner that caught fire at Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts today. The parked Boeing Co 787 Dreamliner aircraft with no passengers on board caught fire at Boston's Logan International Airport while parked at a gate on Monday morning, an airport spokesman said.

The U.S. transportation safety agency said on Monday it was analyzing the lithium-ion battery and burned wire bundles as part of its investigation into a fire aboard a Japan Airlines Boeing 787 at Boston's Logan Airport last week.

The National Transportation Safety Board said in a statement that its investigators plan to disassemble the battery this week after studying the internal condition of the battery via X-rays and computed tomography scans at an independent test facility over the weekend.

Investigators also took possession of burned wire bundles, the auxiliary power unit (APU) battery charger and several memory modules to search for any available data.

The airplane's two combined flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder units were also brought to NTSB headquarters and are being analyzed by the investigative team.

The fire occurred on one of Boeing's sophisticated new 787 Dreamliner jets Jan. 7 at Logan Airport. A mechanic inspecting the Japan Airlines jet discovered smoke in the cockpit while performing a routine post-flight inspection. There were no passengers on board.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:01 PM   #317
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Come on and lets finish this.Daddy needs a lithiun,er a Lion,um ya,a light wgt batt. for my K100 Naked project
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:31 PM   #318
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Come on and lets finish this.Daddy needs a lithiun,er a Lion,um ya,a light wgt batt. for my K100 Naked project
how bike is to be used will decide which battery to go with.
so far very impressed with Earth-X cranking performance. it delivers cranking amps as claimed.

but any battery with lower actual amp hour reserves like Earth-X ETX24 or Shorai LFX21.
there are situations where bike's alternator just is not given enough time to recharge battery back to full.
this is where Earth-X ETX36 or Shorai LFX36 with it's extra amp hour reserve shines.

BMW airheads with low 250 watt output (not K100), combined with long crank times, heated gear, lights and cold weather.
with all the extra drain, output is barely enough to keep from depleting battery further especially on short rides.
folks don't realize this and blame the battery next morning when bike will not start in 20f degrees. it would be good to use a Battery Tender Jr. (only) overnight to charge backup after a short cold ride with heated gear.

older bikes without fuel injection could take 20+ seconds of cranking when temps go down below say 30f.
unlike fuel injected modern bikes in proper tune, will usually start after a few seconds cranking even when cold.

if bike is to be used on long trips, including winter riding. currently the only LiFePO4 batteries I can recommend are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36. if you are mounting battery in a non stock location. make dead certain no possible way for positive side to ground out. don't loose your bike to a fire. lithium batteries discharge at huge rates producing heat equal to arc welding.

if bike is to be used only on rides from home garage with a fully charged battery everytime. then a smaller LiFePO4 battery can be used. Earth-X has an internal BMS which gives overcharge protection to about 3amps. but my recommendation is only use a quality battery charger like Battery Tender Jr. that actually terminates charge after X volts is reached.

size comp... Shorai LFX36 on left, Earth-X ETX36C right

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-14-2013 at 05:01 PM
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:31 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Tweaker View Post
The battery box that burned for 40+ minutes. After reading the hysteria around here from our experts, I have to say i am thoroughly disappointed. I expected more. Sorry about the size.
thanks for posting pic... re-sized below

apart from a breach of the structure of aircraft itself, isn't a fire on aircraft in the air among most serious emergency there is?

hysteria huh ... if a total system failure for a battery backup to the main APU doesn't scare you... then what does?

notice the burnt bundle of wires going into battery pack. which of course goes into all sorts of electronics. I'd be very concerned at what electronics taken out by fire. on an aircraft this advance ... a loss of electronics on such a heavily computer controlled aircraft would be bad news indeed.

peek at this high level schematic below. reason for so many electrical subsystems is the no bleed concept used in 787. IE electrically driven hydraulic pumps are extensively used.

burnt lithium cobalt picture reveals there are 8x 65amp hour GS Yusa prismatic cells. highly unlikely it would burn for 40 minutes by itself. 8x 3.7v nominal = 29.6v ... actual voltage range from 28v to 33.6v full charged. possible sustained output for large packs like this would be 28C+ range or 1,800+ amps at 29-33v

lithium cobalt cells will accept a charge for long as one is delivered. until thermal runaway occurs at about 4.4v range. a circuit board failure that controls charging for these massive lithium cobalt cells could easily result in burnt battery below.

Lithium cobalt battery pack fire progression typical ... one or two cells goes unstable into thermal runaway... then explodes with a ball of fire. burning cell will burn with explosive force. a few minutes later ... heating nearby cells to critical temp, igniting it... chain reaction continues until all cells are consumed.





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Old 01-16-2013, 05:11 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
how bike is to be used will decide which battery to go with.
so far very impressed with Earth-X cranking performance. it delivers cranking amps as claimed.

but any battery with lower actual amp hour reserves like Earth-X ETX24 or Shorai LFX21.
there are situations where bike's alternator just is not given enough time to recharge battery back to full.
this is where Earth-X ETX36 or Shorai LFX36 with it's extra amp hour reserve shines.

BMW airheads with low 250 watt output (not K100), combined with long crank times, heated gear, lights and cold weather.
with all the extra drain, output is barely enough to keep from depleting battery further especially on short rides.
folks don't realize this and blame the battery next morning when bike will not start in 20f degrees. it would be good to use a Battery Tender Jr. (only) overnight to charge backup after a short cold ride with heated gear.

older bikes without fuel injection could take 20+ seconds of cranking when temps go down below say 30f.
unlike fuel injected modern bikes in proper tune, will usually start after a few seconds cranking even when cold.

if bike is to be used on long trips, including winter riding. currently the only LiFePO4 batteries I can recommend are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36. if you are mounting battery in a non stock location. make dead certain no possible way for positive side to ground out. don't loose your bike to a fire. lithium batteries discharge at huge rates producing heat equal to arc welding.

if bike is to be used only on rides from home garage with a fully charged battery everytime. then a smaller LiFePO4 battery can be used. Earth-X has an internal BMS which gives overcharge protection to about 3amps. but my recommendation is only use a quality battery charger like Battery Tender Jr. that actually terminates charge after X volts is reached.

size comp... Shorai LFX36 on left, Earth-X ETX36C right
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:24 AM   #321
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PS Why the larger size batt. for longer trips? I might be replacing the batt. on my 02 R1150RT soon,and I usually travel 4-7 hours to Rallys.Are you worried about overcharging?
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:07 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by frogy View Post
PS Why the larger size batt. for longer trips? I might be replacing the batt. on my 02 R1150RT soon,and I usually travel 4-7 hours to Rallys.Are you worried about overcharging?
not worried about overcharging look closely at chart below. LiFePO4 batteries in 4s config charges to 14.6v (full charge). then if battery is equipped with internal BMS. volts will drop down to about 13.8v range. LiFePO4 battery without BMS will typically self discharge overnight to 14.1v range. note very little power loss from 14.6 to 13.85v

a normal motorcycle charges at 13.8v to 14.2v range. so long as charging voltage remains in normal range. your LiFePO4 battery will not overcharge.

LiFePO4 li-ion batteries are inherently stable and very hard to cause it to catch on fire. vs lithium cobalt li-ion batteries catching on fire Boeing 787 in the news.



keep in mind airhead (non- fuel injected) motorcycles takes longer crank times when temps dips down. LiFePO4 batteries degrade in the cold.... much as 50% degradation in amp hour capacity within range of motorcycle riding temps. most folks don't go riding at -10c (14f) degrees, but it's not unusual for folks to ride below that.

so a short cold ride with headed gear and long crank times = worst case scenario for a LiFePO4 battery. keep in mind I'm dealing with actual amp hour not wildly inflated amp hour listing by most battery mfg. PB/EQ or lead acid equivalent.

both Shorai LFX21 and Earth-X ETX24 failed next morning... after being subjected to long crank times at 25f to start R80G/S followed by a 15-20 minute ride with full heated gear on. then bike was parked outside for several hours while temps fell to 20f. then R80G/S was started and ridden home 15-20min with full heated gear (Gerbing heated jacket, heated pants, heated gloves and BMW heated grips)

next morning R80G/S with both Shorai LFX21 failed to start R80G/S at 20f. repeated same scenario with Earth-X ETX24 which also failed next morning.

R80G/S used a voltage regulator from www.motoelekt.com that charges at a slightly higher (14.4v) voltage to increase output. R80G/S has an upgraded 400watt alternator (from www.motoelekt.com). have changed back to normal voltage regulator since then. changed battery out to larger Shorai LFX36 and have had NO further problem with battery not having enough amp hour reserves. one year later and LOTS of short cold rides with heated gear.

this is why for folks who takes their adventure bikes (pigs) on extended trips ... Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36 are the only two batteries I would recommend. by the way for modern high tech fuel injected bikes ... yes when things are tuned and running perfect. bike starts with a few seconds of cranking even when cold. ah .. but what happens when that fancy bike's fuel pump decides to take a dump??? and/or you get a bad load of fuel.... sometime cranking and cranking and cranking while beating on the fuel pump will get you going again.

all that takes amp hours! ... an Odessey AGM for BMW 28 AH, weight 22lb. vs ETX36 weight 3lb 11oz, LFX36 slightly heavier. both measure out actual about 13 amp hour. that's a whooping 18lb saving. original BMW gel battery is 19AH.


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Old 01-16-2013, 11:29 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Tweaker View Post
Unconfirmed reports say there was a battery warning in the cockpit and then a smell. The APU battery has no warning indicator so this points to the main battery in the forward section. This plane has been in service for one year to the day.

Yes, cy, fire is very serious, even more so than engine bits ripping into the cabin.. The 787 is being heavily scrutinized now, there was another fire in an A333 in Tokyo yesterday that nobody heard about and another emergency landing Monday of an USAirways flight for smoke in the cabin.

I imagine the charging circuitry will get a good scrutiny. Sourced from Thales, we can blame the French.
they need to yank out ALL lithium cobalt li-ion batteries out of 787!!! and replace with lithium iron phosphate or AGM. think in terms of cell volt multiples. 787 uses a 28V battery system. PB and LiFePO4 cells multiply up nicely and will both support 28V. (note Ni-cad and PB are already approved technologies which FAA has issued an emergency directive before)

LiFePO4 li-ion has about 1/2 energy density as lithium cobalt li-ion. so number of prismatic cells will be higher and larger than lithium cobalt to deliver same amp hour and volts.

charging requirements are different for LiFePO4, but rest of electronics should remain essentially the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyRaccoon View Post
I'm surprised they went with this technology, and even more surprised they didn't ask you before they did.
this is the most baffling part ... there is NO way those folks at GS Yusa and Thales didn't know dangers of lithium cobalt li-ion batteries. which are well known.

it's understandable why lithium cobalt was spec'd back in 2003 era ... but LOTS has happened since then. there is NO way the folks at GS Yusa and Thales didn't know about all the Sony laptops catching in fire and the massive number of battery replacement that followed. FAA restricting transport of li-ion cells catching on fire, etc.

the number of competent battery guys are small but they are out there. just so happens I've been involved with li-ion cells almost from the beginning when A123 had barely started.

strangely enough consumer use of li-ion cells happened on Candlepower forums. we among the world's first users of li-ion batteries in flashlights without protection circuits. lithium cobalt was the most commonly used li-ion cells. we went through all sorts of battery explosions back then. we were on the bleeding edge for consumer use of li-ion cells.

there's a little mostly unknown phenomena when lithium ions migrate during discharge and charging. if charging rates are too low for extend periods, dendrites may form very similar to metal forming like crystals during extended plating. if enough dendrites form and shorts out.... a fire could result. this is even with protection circuits working.

due to all the delays in 787 launch, an important question that comes into mind is how old are the batteries used in 787 and how were they stored? which really is a moot point as Lithium cobalt li-ion batteries should have never made it into production in 787.

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Old 01-18-2013, 06:48 PM   #324
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I opened up a box with a new Shorai LFX18 for my KTM 990 today. It's my second Shorai and I wanted to make sure it's ok before firing up the bike. My (about 40 US$) voltmeter said 12.9 V out of the box (ambient room temp.). I charged it with Shorai's charger and it "beeped full and ready" at 14.05 volts after less than 10 minutes. When disconnecting the charger, the battery voltage drops to 13.85 after some couple of minutes and then stays there.

I repeated the charging a couple of times and it always tells "full" at between 14.0 and 14.05 volts. The store mode charging stops when my voltmeter indicates 13.0 volts.

I am suspicios on the condition of my new Shorai since 1) the Shorai charger stops at 14.05 volts while the table above in this thread tells 14.34 volts at 100 %. For comparison, my old (almost dead) Shorai reched only 13.3-13.4 volts at full charge with the Shorai charger. Is perhaps the new Shorai already on it's way downhill??!!

Second reason for my suspicion is the very short time it takes to fully charge the battery. I have not tried measuring the voltage of the individual cells as described early in this thread.

Would appreciate any comments and if I should return the battery to the dealer before firing up my KTM.

Tonight the Shorai charger is set on store mode in my garage (a couple of degrees above freezing) and I will repeat the charging to full by tomorrow, to find out if the final voltage differs at lower ambient temperature.
LiFePO4 batteries for motorcycle are made of four cells in series. discharge curve for LiFePO4 are very flat. a specific to LiFePO4 charge typically will charge to 14.6V (fully charged)

battery will then self discharge overnight to about 14.1v for batteries without BMS. it's normal for LiFePO4 batteries with BMS to self discharge to about 13.85V. very little power is contained within 14.6v to 13.85v.

your volt meter sounds like it's off... check with a known to be correct meter like Fluke 87V. it's ok to use cheap meter, but you must verify accuracy first. take any primary lithium battery to an HVAC supply. then ask to see a new Fluke 87V. tell them you are check accuracy of meter. if both meters read same you are good to go. voltage coming of out primary lithium batteries are fairly stable.

reason battery charger is kicking off early sure sounds like your Shorai battery is almost fully charged before sticking charger. notice almost entire discharge ranges about 1/2v difference. an accurate meter is a must!

IMHO LFX18 is way too small for your KTM 990, especially for adventure travel. the only LiFePO4 batteries I can recommend for an adventure bike are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36. both have excellent cranking power with ample amp hour reserves.

for bikes only ridden from home base with a fully charged battery everytime. then a smaller battery may be acceptable. still would not recommend LFX18 ... mfg have a tendency to spec battery several sizes too small. LFX18 has a tiny actual amp hour capacity with lower cranking abilities vs larger LiFePO4 batteries from Shorai and Earth-X.

Earth-X batteries delivers cranking amps as claimed. but their amp hour capacities are inflated too. for example ETX24 measures about 6.3 amp hour actual at 1c discharge rate. which will be higher using the much lower discharge rates used by mfg for ratings. but Earth-X ETX 24 managed to excel in delivering sustained 200amp cranking performance. much better than Shorai LFX21 which also put out decent 200 amp cranking performance. but Earth-X ETX24 outperformed Shorai LFX21 by a substantial margin. both have about same actual AH capacity. ignore amp hour ratings by both Shorai and Earth-X, they are no where close to actual amp hours.

see earlier posts in this battery testing thread for exact data.



Shorai LFX 36 after one year with excellent performance, next to Earth-X ETX36 just getting started and doing excellent.

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Old 01-20-2013, 06:56 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by ABHulgan View Post
My KLR has a lithium battery. Should I forego riding tomorrow until it's fixed????
HUGE gap of information out there.

your motorcycle li-ion battery is made from lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) which are inherently safe. that battery can survive all sorts of abuse without problems. in fact it's all but impossible to make that battery go into thermal runaway (explosion) like the lithium cobalt (LiCoO2) batteries in 787.

both type cells are known as li-ion but are worlds apart in safety.

Glazed eyeball alert ....

think cell multiples ...... it's not possible for a lithium cobalt li-ion battery to match voltage of a 12v system. LiFePO4 cells operate within a normal or 'nominal' voltage of 3.0 to 3.3 volts and are fully charged at 3.65v. VS lithium cobalt (LiCoO2) operate at 3.7v nominal and are fully charged at 4.2V. Problem starts when LiCoO2 cells are charged over 4.2v and possibly go into thermal runaway at about 4.4v.

above compounds refer to the cathode material. The electrolyte of a lithium-ion battery can vary. typically an aqueous solution of lithium salts. can also be polymer based for easier shaping and safer puncture characteristics. anode of most cells are made of carbon.

LiFePO4 batteries do match our motorcycle's 12v systems and can be made from cylindrical and prismatic cells both.

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Old 01-20-2013, 03:21 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Twilight Error View Post
Yup. LiNiCoO.

They're also found on many spacecraft, including Spirit, Opportunity and Curiosity. The Navy has a submarine with the world's largest LiIon battery as a power source.

It can be done, but it isn't cheap.
glazed eyeball alert ...

LiNiCoO or lithium Nickel cobalt oxide is not lithium cobalt oxide. there's many different formulation of li-ion cells. what was available a decade ago has little relevance to chemistry available to day. Lithium technology is one of the fastest changing industries in the world. this is why loss of A123, America's only true lithium cell manufacture to foreign interests would be true long term blow. the technologies of tomorrow paid by US tax payer $$$ could be given away.

Other varieties of li-ion cells include: lithium cobalt oxide - LiCoO2 ; lithium manganese oxide - LiMn2O4 ; and lithium nickel oxide - LiNiO2. All these compounds refer to cathode material. electrolyte of a lithium-ion battery can vary. typically an aqueous fluidic solution of lithium salts, it can also be polymer based for easier shaping and safer puncture characteristics. anode of most cells are made of carbon.

each chemistry has it's own advantage and disadvantages of which LiFePO4 is the most stable.

LiFePO4 has advantages over other types of li-ion batteries. abundance of Iron available makes it relatively low cost. non-toxic making batteries safer to use as well as better for the environment, producing and recycling. with a longer life span in shelf life and cycle life. more stable than other chemistry's and far less likely to suffer from thermal runaway. LiCoO2 cells, can burst into flames if over charged and potentially release hazardous chemicals. Overcharging and overdischarging LiFePO4 cells will damage them, but generally without the explosive side effects. It can shorten cycle life or even result in deformation and a dead cell.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:49 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post

IMHO LFX18 is way too small for your KTM 990, especially for adventure travel. the only LiFePO4 batteries I can recommend for an adventure bike are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36. both have excellent cranking power with ample amp hour reserves.
The 18 works fine in the KTM. I just got mine, but it immediately started the bike from cold at 27 degrees F. Oh, and I have carbs on my bike, like every other carbed bike I have ever had, starts just as quickly as my FI bikes. 20 or 30 second crank times to start? That's silly.

For reference, I had a 8 cell, yes an 8 cell, TurnTech in my 950 for two years and it worked without issue too, except for sluggish cold starts until it self heated.

The big KTM's don't really have big electrical capabilities anyway. We are happy maybe with a set of heated grips and some auxillary LEDs. The Ah of the 18 Earth-X can easily handle that. I wouldn't hesitate to take mine anywhere off the beaten path. Heck I did that with my 8 cell TurnTech.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:09 PM   #328
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The 18 works fine in the KTM. I just got mine, but it immediately started the bike from cold at 27 degrees F. Oh, and I have carbs on my bike, like every other carbed bike I have ever had, starts just as quickly as my FI bikes. 20 or 30 second crank times to start? That's silly.

For reference, I had a 8 cell, yes an 8 cell, TurnTech in my 950 for two years and it worked without issue too, except for sluggish cold starts until it self heated.

The big KTM's don't really have big electrical capabilities anyway. We are happy maybe with a set of heated grips and some auxillary LEDs. The Ah of the 18 Earth-X can easily handle that. I wouldn't hesitate to take mine anywhere off the beaten path. Heck I did that with my 8 cell TurnTech.
when everything is going hunky dory no problems using LFX18... but what if you get in an situation where extended cranking is needed?
like say a bad load of fuel ... or a fuel pump going out... etc. etc... that's when extended crank times come into play. not when everything is going fine. and we all know nothing ever goes wrong with KTM's

by the way actual amp hour capacity on LFX18 is about 4.5 AH depending on how it's measured. an 8 cell LiFePO4 26650 cylindrical has about 4.6AH actual. battery mfg including Shorai and Earth-X wildly inflate amp hour ratings. Earth-X seems to outperform Shorai for cranking performance on smaller sizes. both Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36 have outstanding cranking performance and good amp hour reserves. hard data a few pages back will verify above statements.

How LifePO4 batteries deliver current makes a huge difference. leaving lights on then starting engine with about 1 second crank with LFX18... under light current draw condition like this... LFX18 will repeat this cycle many times. way more than needed to start bike in warm conditions.

LifePO4 loses 50% of it's AH capacity at 10C (14f) battery has to be warmed up by running current... this takes amp hours....

so if bike always leave home base in a fully charged condition stored inside. cranking amp needed to start a modern fuel injected bike will only be few seconds or in your case an easy to start carb bike even when cold. not all bikes are so blessed... (R80 G/S takes extended cranking when temps dip to 20f) when it's 15f outside, usually doesn't drop below 30f inside my garage. once bike is running you've got warm bike for easy starts getting back home.... again light duty conditions which a small battery like LFX18 could handle.

multiple 30second 200 amp cranks ... no way

adventure bikes are used in all sorts of conditions without home base support. they have probably the highest amp hour requirements of all bikes. so far, only batteries I can recommend for Adventure bikes are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36.

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Old 01-22-2013, 06:13 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post


by the way actual amp hour capacity on LFX18 is about 4.5 AH depending on how it's measured. an 8 cell LiFePO4 26650 cylindrical has about 4.6AH actual. battery mfg including Shorai and Earth-X wildly inflate amp hour ratings. Earth-X seems to outperform Shorai for cranking performance on smaller sizes. both Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36 have outstanding cranking performance and good amp hour reserves. hard data a few pages back will verify above statements.


I sure don't doubt you know what you write of. Hard data is great, which is why I value empirical evidence so much. Either it works or it doesn't. I understand your perpective on the big battery recommendation as a fail-safe, but you never can really prepare for everything. Prepare the best you can within reason and figure out a way to handle it when a situation arises.

You mentioned bad gas. That happened to me in the middle of Big Bend. Drained the tanks a bit, completely drained the float bowls, and the bike started right up. That was with my tiny 8 cell battery too.

Heck, as light as these batteries are, throw an extra in your bags or your pack if you feel the need.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:32 AM   #330
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I sure don't doubt you know what you write of. Hard data is great, which is why I value empirical evidence so much. Either it works or it doesn't. I understand your perpective on the big battery recommendation as a fail-safe, but you never can really prepare for everything. Prepare the best you can within reason and figure out a way to handle it when a situation arises.

You mentioned bad gas. That happened to me in the middle of Big Bend. Drained the tanks a bit, completely drained the float bowls, and the bike started right up. That was with my tiny 8 cell battery too.

Heck, as light as these batteries are, throw an extra in your bags or your pack if you feel the need.
being able to service carbs on side of the road or trail is a huge advantage. vs fuel injected rigs like say R800GS.... get a bad load of fuel in that.... one has to crank ... and crank and crank ... while beating on side of fuel pump, etc to hopefully get it going again.

so repeated 30 second 200 amp cranks are not that far fetched for modern adventure bikes. having a battery with enough Amp hour reserves could easily mean the difference between riding or walking out.

yes I've packed a spare battery when testing smaller Li-ion batteries. again .. main drawback to using larger batteries like ETX36 and LFX36 is costs $$$.

in terms of shedding lb off your bike, LiFePO4 batteries are among the most cost effective ways to do it. look at all the folks spending $$$ for carbon fiber parts.

an Odyssey AGM for R80G/S is 22lb vs Earth-X ETX36C is 3lb 110z... 18lb saving is substantial!
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