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Old 01-14-2013, 01:26 PM   #181
Jim Moore
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
If you can't negotiate a curve without thinking about how you are countersteering, you are screwed when there's no time to think...
The world must come at you at in a terrifying blur. "OMG, A CURVE! OK, don't think, don't think! What do I do?! Don't think! Just hope it works out. Woah, I made it, thank God. OMG! ANOTHER ONE! What do I do?!" And on and on.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:40 PM   #182
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What?
Yah, what he said...
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:07 PM   #183
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Yah, what he said...
Ok I will explain. You have seen videos of people running wide in a curve when they had more lean clearance left, we all have. Those people don't understand counter steering.

If they did understand countersteering then they would not run wide, instead they would lowside in the corner before the tires left the payment.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:43 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
I disagree. Thinking about it and practicing it is the best way to ensure success. Deliberately not thinking about it is silly.
+1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
If you can't negotiate a curve without thinking about how you are countersteering, you are screwed when there's no time to think...
As long as everything is going fine, that's fine. But what happens to people who do not have any conscious knowledge of what they are doing there is that if they get into an emergency, and panic, their mind often overrides their muscle memory and they do the exact wrong thing and steer into the danger instead of away because they didn't know what they were doing. The CORRECT answer is for it to be instinctive AND for you to have awareness of what you are doing instinctively, so all that you do is in harmony under all conditions.

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Old 01-14-2013, 10:25 PM   #185
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Woah, an engineering degree! With calculus! Well, never mind then.

Just kidding. You're still being willfully ignorant. It's not a huge deal to me, but I think you're giving out bad advice. You are advocating deliberately not thinking about countersteering, and letting your "lizard brain" take over. I'm advocating making countersteering part of your deliberate thought process. IMO I can be more precise in my day-to-day operations if I'm actively engaged in the act of turning the motorcycle. Also, I'm more likely to get it right in an emergency if I have trained myself to operate the controls, rather than hoping the lizard brain gets it right. YMMV, and it obviously does in this case.
Like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target. My point is that everybody's mind works differently. (And your woeful ignorance has proven that point in spades.)

As I pointed out in my earlier post, for some it may help them to think in terms of countersteering and physics but for many (and I would suggest most) that trusting in instincts and relying upon what one has learned from personal experience and survival instincts proves to be more reliable, immediate and effective than jacking off on theoretical bullshit on the The Interwebz.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:21 AM   #186
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As I pointed out in my earlier post, for some it may help them to think in terms of countersteering and physics but for many (and I would suggest most) that trusting in instincts and relying upon what one has learned from personal experience and survival instincts proves to be more reliable, immediate and effective than jacking off on theoretical bullshit on the The Interwebz.
I don't argue that everyone needs to find their own way of making proper riding technique stick in there brain no matter how nervous or surprised they get. However, usually survival instincts on a motorcycle cause you to turn right when you want to go right or grab a hand full of brake when you need to get on the throttle!

Practice does more for your riding than thinking ever will but, you've gotta think about what your practicing to know whether or not what your practicing is correct. Understanding the physics behind it helped me a lot but you definitely don't need to. You do need to know what your doing however before you can create those correct survival instincts on a motorcycle.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:46 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by duck View Post
As I pointed out in my earlier post, for some it may help them to think in terms of countersteering and physics but for many (and I would suggest most) that trusting in instincts and relying upon what one has learned from personal experience and survival instincts proves to be more reliable, immediate and effective than jacking off on theoretical bullshit on the The Interwebz.
Actually you said that you wouldn't ever want to ride with someone who deliberately thinks about countersteering during a ride. I'm slowly pulling you into the light though. You're a stubborn lil' thing, but you'll get there eventually.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:07 AM   #188
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What I hope everyone is suggesting is you think through, and understand the physics and mechanics of countersteering to LEARN it. Then after that point executing should be 2nd nature,and require no thought.

I know when I ride, there are many parts to braking, turning, downshifting, correcting, etc. I imagine nobody thinks through all that, it's just 2nd nature, once you've learned it.

If people are suggesting in a split second you have to think "push left to go left HARD, RIGHT NOW TO MISS THAT CAR"... then motorcycling is not for you.

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Old 01-15-2013, 07:03 AM   #189
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perhaps if you think of other things that require similar thinking , the process may make more sense to some.for instance:typing, you don't instinctively know where the keys are. they are painstakingly learned and after a while it does not require brain activity to type.
heavy equipment operator: think running a full swing or a crane comes naturally?. to start you have to think .this lever booms out, this lever rolls the bucket etc. it is a slow process, do it long enough and wala it becomes automatic. brain is not in the equation any more , all eyes and hands and feet.
to think riding a motorcycle is any different is just, well ignorant.
as a side note if you want a laugh,go up to a fullswing operator on their machine, point out a lever,than ask him(or her) what it does. most of the time they have to think for several seconds before they can answer. think about why that is and how it relates to properly learning to ride.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:11 AM   #190
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perhaps if you think of other things that require similar thinking , the process may make more sense to some.for instance:typing, you don't instinctively know where the keys are. they are painstakingly learned and after a while it does not require brain activity to type.
heavy equipment operator: think running a full swing or a crane comes naturally?. to start you have to think .this lever booms out, this lever rolls the bucket etc. it is a slow process, do it long enough and wala it becomes automatic. brain is not in the equation any more , all eyes and hands and feet.
to think riding a motorcycle is any different is just, well ignorant.
as a side note if you want a laugh,go up to a fullswing operator on their machine, point out a lever,than ask him(or her) what it does. most of the time they have to think for several seconds before they can answer. think about why that is and how it relates to properly learning to ride.
Funny you mentioned that about the controls.

I know my mountain bike has a front brake on teh left lever, and rear brake on the right lever. I operate them without thinking. My motorcycles all have front brake on right lever.

Now, if I haven't thought about it, I'm unsure of where the mountain bike controls are, but I don't *think* before I hop on and ride. Kinda like having to enter a security code to enter a building. I sometimes can't tell you what my code is until I am right in front of the keypad, then I remember it.

Very weird and amazing how the brain works.

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Old 01-15-2013, 07:33 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by duck View Post
As I pointed out in my earlier post, for some it may help them to think in terms of countersteering and physics but for many (and I would suggest most) that trusting in instincts and relying upon what one has learned from personal experience and survival instincts proves to be more reliable, immediate and effective than jacking off on theoretical bullshit on the The Interwebz.
- that's wrong.

- controlling a bike in a corner is something that needs to be learnt and practised.

.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:10 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Ok I will explain. You have seen videos of people running wide in a curve when they had more lean clearance left, we all have. Those people don't understand counter steering.

If they did understand countersteering then they would not run wide, instead they would lowside in the corner before the tires left the payment.
The problem of such a person is not about conscious countersteering or not. It is about not knowing the appropriate speed for a curve.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:15 AM   #193
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Someone that clearly does not know what he is talking about?

The VAST majority of bikes are still NON-ABS. (as it should be)
Let me re-phrase my statement, as some people here require a mental nudge to understand things. The vast majority of non-retro, 700ccs and above motorcycles come with ABS. As it should be.

But I'm definitely not interested in starting an ABS conversation when there is still so much fun to have with counter-steering.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:18 AM   #194
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The problem of such a person is not about conscious countersteering or not. It is about not knowing their appropriate speed for a curve.
Fixed.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:21 AM   #195
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Fixed.
That's not what she said.
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