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Old 01-13-2013, 06:01 PM   #31
larryboy
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Awesome! Sounds like Eagle Mike is a good community supporter. I'm leaning that way right now.

Yup, he showed up at my house for a techday one time...800 miles from his house.

He's a great guy and knows what he's doing when it comes to all things mechanical.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:22 PM   #32
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Just called Eagle Mike. He does in fact have a used head and cams on hand that he's going to machine up. I'll also be ordering up a 688 piston kit from him tomorrow (the 685 kits are out of stock) along with a doohickey replacement kit.

Pretty excited, it's going to be like parts christmas soon!
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:18 PM   #33
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Parts are all ordered up! Should be on their way in the next couple of days.

It's been a little bit of the waiting game recently. Between waiting for parts to arrive, and waiting for this cold spell to pass. I really wish I had a heated garage...
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:00 PM   #34
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More than likely the bike was simply run low on oil and destroyed the top end.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:06 PM   #35
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Question Day 3 of the rebuild! Interesting surprise today...

Finally! Here we are again. I have the majority of parts I need on their way from Eagle Mike. It's time for me to get the bike ready and prepared for the parts before they arrive.

This is the bike as I last left it. The head is off and besides some hypothesizing, there hasn't been a solid answer for the oil starvation that caused the cam journal damage.



Right when I started, I noticed that I forgot to remove my thermostat from the coolant line. Better label and baggy that for safe keeping.



Time for me to get the cylinder jug off. What about this little guy? Yup, I gotta remove it. Carefully.



Here's the ridiculous 1/4" drive extension and 8mm socket that I have been using a ton on this bike. I rarely use any 1/4" drive tools. I'm getting my money's worth now.



I had to be somewhat careful not to drop the bolt down.



After the bolt was off, it was time for me to remove the coolant hose from the cylinder jug.



There's a metal holder for the head's oil line that is connected to the cylinder jug.



The Clymer manual didn't mention removing the starter. It took about five minutes and it gave me a lot more room to work.



Here's the starter ground wire.



Starter is out!



Almost… positive wire needs to be disconnected.



I found a nice little nest waiting for me underneath the starter. There was also a bit of oil around the middle oil banjo bolt. Seems like a strange oil setup and route. I'm going to investigate this oil line soon. It could be clogged and that would explain the starvation.



Some nice nest materials in there. Crazy-wide-angle-hands!



Time to remove the acorn nuts holding the cylinder jug on. Here's the rear.



And this front one.



Awesome. The threaded part of bolt is coming out because the acorn nut is seized. The indentation on the block prevented it from being removed all the way. I had to back the bolt and acorn nut out at the same time as I lifted the cylinder jug off.



After some slight encouragement from a rubber mallet, the cylinder jug started coming off.



Here's the seized acorn nut on the threaded stud. I don't think it will be an issue if I reinstall it like this. Just inconvenient. I might soak it in PB Blaster over night.



Lifting the jug off.





Off!



Here's the front.



And the bottom.



The section of the cylinder that is exposed to combustion.



The piston and connecting rod are free at last.



View from the rear.



And from above. A small amount of the crank can be seen.



Precautionary shop towels.



Taking out the wrist pin clips.



Piston is disconnected! It looks in pretty good shape. It really should be for only 12,000 miles on the bike.



Some heat and oil discoloration underneath. Seems pretty usual.



The connecting rod looks in great shape. This is good!



It looks like there might have been some blow-by. Notice the discoloration below the oil scraping ring. This wasn't present on the other side.



With the big bore kit on the way, this might just make a nice paper weight. Perhaps an extravagant and massive drink coaster?



Also, don't forget the dowels in between the bottom end and cylinder jug. I almost did.



Definitely a lot more room in the frame now.



With the top end of the engine off. It's time for me to start checking parts of the engine for clues to the oil starvation. As recommended here, the oil screen is a great place to start. The right side clutch cover needs to come off.



First, the rear brake needs to be moved out of the way.



The oil filter hollow pin on the inside also needs to come out.



I put the cover back on and put the bolts back in finger tight.



I also had to disconnect the clutch cable. With a little wiggling, it was able to pop right off.



I needed to remove the water pump as well.



This photo is so that I remember that the front bolt is longer and not threaded the entire length.



After removal of the water pump housing, the impeller is now visible.



I thought it would come off a little easier, but it seemed like it was slightly bound up. Not the best method for removal, but I had some luck with working a flat-head around it and using leverage to slowly get the impeller off.



After a minute or so, I got it removed.



Impeller drive shaft.



Some sort of spring o-ring combo? Must have been designed in the future… or the late 80s…



The Clymer manual had a great tip to move the clutch cable lever facing the rear so that it would internally disengage.



Again, the 1/4" drive and 8mm socket combo comes into play.



I started at this bolt and worked my way around clockwise. Slowly loosening each one a small bit each time around.



There were 15 bolts. One of them is not quite like the others. This is the order they came off the bike, starting at the first bolt I pointed out above.



After some persuasion from a rubber mallet, the side cover was ready to come off.





Off!



Looks pretty good.



Time to remove the oil screen… OH MY DEAR… WHAT… THE… Whoa… I have never seen anything like this before.



Is that… gasket material/case sealant? Did this come from an overzealous factory worker? Shady mechanic? I was completely speechless at this point.

Uh…



It kind of felt like fake fishing worms.



Here's some closeups. Most of it was soft grey material. It looked like A LOT of overflow from gasket sealant, or the stuff you use to seal two engine case halves. There was also some black somewhat stiff rubber material in there too. I'm not sure where this came from. It's not the same hard plastic as the cam chain guides. Any ideas?!









Scale reference.



The passageway to the oil screen seems clean enough.



Here's everything with the case off.



With the surprise from the oil screen. I wanted to double check the doohickey situation. I didn't have all the tools needed yet, so I knew I was going to hit a roadblock when I needed to remove the stator.

I started with removing the gear shift lever.





Front sprocket cover had to come off too. Nice and greasy…



The front sprocket, chain and rear sprocket actually look like they are in great condition. A small bit of a silver lining!



Definitely seems like there might be some oil leaking out of the middle banjo bolt.



Plenty of room to remove this cover now.



I started at this bolt, and worked around clockwise just as before. Slowly loosening each one a small bit at a time.



It looks like all 10 bolts are exactly the same.



I found this rubber plug on the bottom. It doesn't look like I needed to remove it in retrospect.



Slowly removing the cover.



As I removed the cover a gear slowly started to fall off. You can see it almost about to fall in this picture.



I caught most of the parts before they fell. Only one small bit fell into the oil. Here's the case after complete removal.



I caught three of the four bits that fell. Not too terrible.



And I fished out the fourth. It looks like one of the two needle bearings.



All four parts, in a semi-exploded view.



And the shape of the gasket that I need to purchase.



It was at this point that I decided to call it quits. I didn't have as good of a view of the doohickey as I had hoped without the proper tools. The small part I could see, looked fine. And there was no evidence of metallic pieces or shavings.

I'm still extremely curious where the dark rubber bits on the oil screen came from. Does anyone have ideas?

Huge thanks to my friends Zach and Chris for giving me a hand with the photos and tools today.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:54 AM   #36
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Nice writeup,
If I understand the oil supply to the top end, it is pressure fed to the left side cam bearings, but splash fed to the right side ones. If the engine was running for any time with the bike on its left side (ie tip over), that would interrupt the oil feed enough to fry the right side bearings, perhaps.

The hard black rubber in the oil strainer could be from the rubber surround (damper) of the balancer chain drive sprocket.
Excess balancer chain tension would cause the chain to dig into the rubber. The oil screen in my '08 was perfectly clean even after 28000km. The balancer chain has never been adjusted from new. (and because the spring is too long it has no tension anyway . I'll be shortening the spring a turn or two but not so much as to excessively tighten the chain)
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:48 AM   #37
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:51 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Kiwi#99 View Post
The hard black rubber in the oil strainer could be from the rubber surround (damper) of the balancer chain drive sprocket.
Excess balancer chain tension would cause the chain to dig into the rubber.
.
Interesting! I'll make sure to check that. Is that behind the left side engine case cover? The same side as the stator?
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by rectangular View Post
Interesting! I'll make sure to check that. Is that behind the left side engine case cover? The same side as the stator?

Yeah, balancer chain sprockets are on the stator side.

Pretty typical for certain years on the gasket sealer worms clogging up the screen. 2004 seems to be the worst, worse than your pictures. You now have a solid cause for the engine damage. Go easy on assembly with the gasket making stuff and make sure to clean the screen again after the rebuild.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:03 AM   #40
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Pretty typical for certain years on the gasket sealer worms clogging up the screen. 2004 seems to be the worst, worse than your pictures. You now have a solid cause for the engine damage.
Wow! Worse? Does this happen at the factory? That's just mind boggling if that's the case.

I've heard that these engines are supposedly bulletproof, but I'm sure finding a lot of bullets. Ha.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:03 PM   #41
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Wow! Worse? Does this happen at the factory? That's just mind boggling if that's the case.

I've heard that these engines are supposedly bulletproof, but I'm sure finding a lot of bullets. Ha.

Yeah, factory. Brand new bikes can look like that. It's cheap to take a look and can be really expensive to ignore.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:41 PM   #42
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:popcorn:

Signed up for this....thanks for sharing.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:52 PM   #43
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Ok. I think I have a good theory on the demise of this topend.

1. From your pictures, the right side cam caps were BOTH installed backwards. In motor assembly, indicator arrows always point to the front of the engine.
2. Because the head, cam, and cam caps are all "machined together", flipping them around could likely change the fitment. I'm guessing this was done at a valve shim swap by the PO. You didn't list the valve shim specs as you found them, did you?
3. If the cam caps were installed backwards (with a poor fit), torqued to spec, and later discovered "worn" as you see them, then the tight/poor fit could be partly to blame for the poor lubrication which compounded the issue. Once they scored, the torque spec probably went into the crapper and they were later discovered "finger tight".
4. This above combined with low oil pressure caused by a) a leaky oil banjo bolt, b) a poorly fitting K&N oil filter (which wasn't likely filtering the shavings adequately), c) a severely clogged oil screen, and d) possibly the PO under-filled with oil.

Sound plausible?

Great write-up.

And a tip-
Don't bother trying to re-install that water pump shaft seal. Buy a fresh pair.
Also, I've noticed these K&N oil filters don't fit worth a damn. Go with the Hi-Flo variety instead.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:34 PM   #44
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Ditto on the good write up and pics. Couple of tips, things to consider, etc:
  • the water pump impeller has an O-ring in there, it's much easier to screw it on and off the pump shaft
  • Take a good look at the oil seal on the inside of the clutch cover, it can get nicked and it's much easier to deal with now

Best!
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:56 PM   #45
rectangular OP
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Ok. I think I have a good theory on the demise of this topend.

1. From your pictures, the right side cam caps were BOTH installed backwards. In motor assembly, indicator arrows always point to the front of the engine.
2. Because the head, cam, and cam caps are all "machined together", flipping them around could likely change the fitment. I'm guessing this was done at a valve shim swap by the PO. You didn't list the valve shim specs as you found them, did you?
3. If the cam caps were installed backwards (with a poor fit), torqued to spec, and later discovered "worn" as you see them, then the tight/poor fit could be partly to blame for the poor lubrication which compounded the issue. Once they scored, the torque spec probably went into the crapper and they were later discovered "finger tight".
4. This above combined with low oil pressure caused by a) a leaky oil banjo bolt, b) a poorly fitting K&N oil filter (which wasn't likely filtering the shavings adequately), c) a severely clogged oil screen, and d) possibly the PO under-filled with oil.

Sound plausible?

Great write-up.

And a tip-
Don't bother trying to re-install that water pump shaft seal. Buy a fresh pair.
Also, I've noticed these K&N oil filters don't fit worth a damn. Go with the Hi-Flo variety instead.
Great suggestions! I noticed the arrows on the cam caps didn't seem to be pointing the right direction when I was taking it apart. I wasn't sure at what point they were set that way. I remember the PO mentioning that he had someone look at what was making the noise. Not sure if it was them, or another previous mechanic/owner.

I didn't notice that the K&N filter didn't have the best fit. I'll try and find one of Hi-Flo filters that you have mentioned.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastleadam
Ditto on the good write up and pics. Couple of tips, things to consider, etc:
the water pump impeller has an O-ring in there, it's much easier to screw it on and off the pump shaft
Take a good look at the oil seal on the inside of the clutch cover, it can get nicked and it's much easier to deal with now
Good points! I'll make sure to mark those down on my todo list.
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