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Old 01-19-2013, 06:37 AM   #466
Johnnymoto
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Its A Vintage Rally...

Just a reminder to the guys that are asking for an increase in Nav/Difficulty, this is a vintage/classic event. If you are running a classic bike having a course that is consistent and getting your machine through is a big part of the thrill. Increasing the difficulty of the course can be done quite easily, go buy a 197X whatever and finish the event.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:39 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Johnnymoto View Post
Increasing the difficulty of the course can be done quite easily, go buy a 197X whatever and finish the event.
Difficult nav and difficult terrain are two different things. If they just eliminated GPS and went with roadbook only, that would be cool, and would be the same difficulty on vintage or modern vehicle. More difficult terrain needs to be in a different event, not M1K. As long as GPS navigation is allowed, it's not a real rally.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:07 AM   #468
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Gee, I don't know............. there are many different tools that can be used to navigate including; maps, compass, roll charts/flip notes, GPS? If there are zero course markings and no pre-running, based on my personal experience, I think that a GPS alone can actually be more difficult than a roll chart.

Maybe it should be like the Adventure Races I used to do where you are given coordinates for check points and you have to figure out where each check point is and how to get to it (and yes GPS is not allowed).
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:39 AM   #469
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I didnt have a GPS .. I DID have my trusty Baja Almanac and my wits..

only one entered in the 450 class... hmmm
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:50 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
I think that a GPS alone can actually be more difficult than a roll chart.
Wow, I agree with you The RB certainly gives you a lot more information than the GPS.
I often wondered if anyone ever considered doing a hybrid RB with a GPS background. Google earth on the move with notes along the way on a display screen. As your cursor moves along, the RB shows the dangers and tulips in the margins.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:04 PM   #471
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GPS????? Anyone can follow a line on a screen
Roadbook and compass headings only IS a lot more FUN!

Now if it was to show ONLY way-point locations and not a trail--- that would be fun.
would make for a lot of cross-country riding!
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:52 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
I think that a GPS alone can actually be more difficult than a roll chart.
Yes and no.

When you don't know the course, you have to watch the GPS screen more than the roadbook because you don't know when you have to turn onto a new road. And you don't always know if you're on the correct road after an intersection, until you've gone a few yards. That’s makes GPS more difficult.

On the other hand, when you know most of the course, and/or it rarely turns off the main road, the GPS can provide a significant advantage because you can see how sharp the turns are before you get to them. So, you can carry more speed through turns, especially on blind corners such as on mountain roads. If you use both roadbook and GPS, which is possible in the M1K, then you get the best of both.

When it comes to getting lost, there’s no comparison between GPS and roadbook. With GPS tracks, you have to be a complete idiot to get lost. With the roadbook, EVERYONE goofs up and has to face the stress of figuring out where they went wrong and how to get back on track. This is a BIG part of cross country rally. It forces you to THINK more about your navigation, and adds stress every minute of the race because you constantly question if you’re on the right track or not. That uncertainty is totally missing with GPS, and gives a completely different experience.

Of course if you know the race course already, because you’ve raced it for years in SCORE, then you probably won’t be stressing over navigation no matter which approach you take. And that gives a huge advantage to those people. A key aspect of cross country rally is that nobody is supposed to know which roads the course takes until they are on it. This is something I’d like NORRA to change, because it would level the playing field a bit without altering the vintage emphasis. And it would be more true to what a cross country rally is supposed to be. Right now the Mexican 1000 is like a 4 day SCORE race on friendlier roads, with overnight down times. It’s a formula that is working well for now. But they will lose some entries over time from those looking for a different kind of experience, an experience that adds the challenge of navigation.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:14 PM   #473
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I’ve been reading this thread HW(can I call you that?) thinking that the original NORRA 1000 want run with GPS or road books, so neither format is really period correct. I think NORRA is really using the Rally term because of the stage format without regard to traditional rally navigation. The majority of the car racers are desert racers, not rally guys. My impression is that it’s a vintage event that is honoring desert racing, not rally racing. I assume if there are vintage rally events, they use traditional rally navigation.

I would not have a problem racing without GPS if the course were marked.

I think that if there are racers/ralliers that want to use only road books that there could be a class set up so it’s fair. I think even though the majority of the Baja racers could get from A to B without road books or GPS, they would take different routes. If you send a 100 cars down the peninsula on different routes it would create more problems than it would solve.

I drive a single seater and the road book is worthless while under power. In the past I would study the book and make notes then tape them to the visor, but there’s now way I’d be able to stay on course without GPS. Sure I could stop read the book, but stopping on the course is a hazard.

I’ve never used a roll chart, but I’m going to investigate it for this year.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:41 PM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az45 View Post
I think NORRA is really using the Rally term because of the stage format without regard to traditional rally navigation... My impression is that it’s a vintage event that is honoring desert racing, not rally racing.
Then why do they offer a rally roadbook? They want it both ways, unfortunately that doesn't really work.

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I think that if there are racers/ralliers that want to use only road books that there could be a class set up so it’s fair.
So far NORRA hasn't accepted that idea, though it's been suggested since the first year.

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I drive a single seater and the road book is worthless while under power. In the past I would study the book and make notes then tape them to the visor, but there’s now way I’d be able to stay on course without GPS. Sure I could stop read the book, but stopping on the course is a hazard.
Bike guys read the roadbook while racing, without stopping, and stay on course. At least one of the M1K single seaters did it too. You just need an odometer and a roadbook holder like the bike guys use:
http://www.rallymanagementservices.c...ions/universal
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:33 AM   #475
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Hey this whole thread is kinda taking on a negative vibe and killing my buzz for this race. So I'm going to do my best to point out the positive.
It is suppose to be funnest race on earth, right!

I get that you guys wish it was as hard to nav as Dakar, I love Dakar but can't afford to go. I can barely afford to make it across the country to this race from IN. I think they have found a bit of a niche because it's not intimidating for non-dessert guys to try. I can't afford to go to one of the Nav course schools etc.... and still do the race. So the easy nav will make it fun yet still do-able. I've only been to Baja twice so don't know the roads so it will all be new and exciting to me. But non-stop talking about how it sucks sure isn't going to help people on the fence show up and try a rally/nav type race. It won't grow and you'll never get to make hard nav race.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:47 AM   #476
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Hey this whole thread is kinda taking on a negative vibe and killing my buzz for this race.
There's a small bit of negative only if you’re hardcore and have your heart set on it being a true cross country rally. Even then, it's still super fun. So take my comments more as informative rather than negative. I guarantee you'll have fun no matter how you navigate it. There’s nothing wrong with GPS, it’s just different from a roadbook. The race has a great relaxed atmosphere, with fun terrain, great scenery, and a lot of great people. And if you do use the roadbook, consider it a fun intro to rally navigation.
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:14 AM   #477
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This is probably 205, but I didn't see it here in the NORRA thread, although a couple of people were talking about it. Here is the press release. I'm hoping the entry fee won't hurt too much...be nice to have two NORRA events to run my vintage bike in:

Quote:
NORRA FORMALLY ANNOUNCES SECOND OFF-ROAD RALLY FOR 2013
-- UNIQUE PARTNERSHIP WITH MEXICAN SANCTIONING BODY CODE WILL FOCUS ON NORTHERN BAJA AND HISTORIC MACHINERY FOR THREE-DAY EVENT --

JANUARY 18, 2013: Armed with a now-proven track record of creating, promoting and hosting the latest form of desert off-road racing, the National Off-Road Racing Association (NORRA) today officially announced it will stage a second vintage-themed rally this year from September 25th to September 28th beginning and ending in Mexicali, Baja, Mexico. The yet-to-be named event will be held the same weekend as the more traditionally formatted 10th annual “Mexicana Logistics 300” race of the CODE Off Road Series, and will offer competitors a second calendar date to NORRA’s General Tire Mexican 1000 rally, which this year takes place from April 27-May 1.

In a unique partnership, NORRA will work on this event with CODE, a well-established Mexican sanctioning body that attracts a very large and enthusiastic group of local racers. CODE has been instrumental in helping NORRA with the complex logistics needed to hold the annual NORRA General Tire Mexican 1000 adventure.
While event details are yet to be completely finalized with Mexican officials, current plans call for contestants enjoying a complete NORRA Tech and Contingency day in Mexicali on Wednesday, Sept. 25th before heading south to the seaside village of San Felipe the next day. Day 2 of the rally will use various roads to reach the town of Ensenada on the Pacific Ocean. On Saturday, September 28th both the NORRA and CODE racers will merge in Ensenada for a combined race and rally back to Mexicali.

NORRA would like to thank Mexicali and Ensenada for their continuous support as we finalize the details of the event.
Beginning in 2010, NORRA has staged the highly popular General Tire NORRA Mexican 1000, a four-day stage rally down the entire exotic Baja peninsula that created a competitive environment for vintage off-road trucks, sedans, buggies and motorcycles for the first time in organized off-road racing’s 46-year history. This year an event record of more than 80 entrants have pre-entered with three months left before the green flag drops. NORRA officials expect to attract a field of 150 competitors for the 2013 rally – a 50% increase over 2012.
Known affectionately as “The Happiest Race on Earth,” the Mexican 1000 rally format now proven by NORRA consists of special stages (unlimited speed timed stages in the dirt) linked together by controlled speed liaison / transit sections (highway). Unlike the often harsh and deeply rutted race courses that are now a desert off-road racing staple, NORRA focuses on utilizing fun, fast and more forgiving roads that favor older and current limited-travel machinery, as well as creating unique hospitality environments at the end of each day of competition.

Certainly the rally’s growing reputation as one of the world’s most enjoyable and accessible motorsports adventures has sparked the enthusiastic response by veteran and rookie racers looking to enjoy the Mexican 1000 experience. So too has the notion of vintage off-road, rally and hot-rod style machinery finding a new, second life after being prepared to participate in the four-day adventure.

The NORRA Mexican 1000 is supported by General Tire, American Racing Wheel, South Point Casino, Walker Evans Racing, Azunia Tequila, KC HiLites and Mastercraft/Impact Racing.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:15 AM   #478
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This is by far the most FUN event I have every ? raced in Baja!!!
( and I have been going to races in baja for over 40 years!! )
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:12 PM   #479
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Ok, now that all that is out of the way. I ask on the rules thread about what class I should enter. I'll be running a 09 KTM 450 with a 6.3 gal tank. Plan on doing main navigating via road book but will have a GPS just for worse case scenario of lost-ness. Should I run the Rally Raid class since that is 450 or the Open class or better yet does it matter kinda leaning toward the Rally Raid 450cc class since NORRA wouldn't create a 42 year old born in June Class.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:02 PM   #480
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Any of you gamblers ?

VIA RaceDezert.com's Norra thread

Re: 2013 NORRA Mexican 1000 4/28 to 5/1
I checked Bill Thompson at Mag 7 and they will be taking care of fuel for the people that sign up with them, including chase rigs. He said that he believes that VP will deliver fuel down there and to contact Brian Busby. Sooooo...that is what I am going to do!

BTW...that pic above with the race cars being fueled by those old fashioned fuel pumps with the glass at the top is bad azz. I think Rory needs to come out with a 'Pemex Racing Fuel' t-shirt. I know I would buy one!



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