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Old 01-20-2013, 08:50 PM   #76
aquadog
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Ah, I see. That is really simple when you put it that way. I'm sure glad I have a seat at the table, as I vote. It may take a few years to make a change, but it does change.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:04 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Brunssd View Post
They want a seat at the table. They are being denied - along with most of the rest of Canadians. Government of, by and for the resource extraction campaign contribution complex.

Resource extraction campaign contribution complex.

Could you please explain where you are going with this comment? And please, honest language. No lawyer talk here, for me, please. Straight up.

Do you want resource extraction? If no, then, if that is the majority view, all money stops. This is what Canada in 2013, and ahead, is. Without this, we are done. Social programs, health care, foreign aid,,,,,"""everyfuckingthing""" . This is what we do. Our labour costs simply cannot compete with the 'Chinas' of the world. Won't happen.

If you do want resource extraction, do you think FN's get 100% of it? Fine,,,,,how do you feel, as the 1%ers of this new society, invested as soul supporters of the 99% of those not FN's? Because, other than the vast majority of this society somehow leaving this country and going???? somewhere else, what will they do?
Really, we have to deal with the present as the present situation. The wrongs done in the past were really bad [thanks catholic church]. And because people found North America500 yrs ago from the 'old world', and modern society became,,,,modern,,,,,there are VERY few societies today that can live a nomadic lifestyle, which is what you have unfortunately had taken from you. Now, we can continue to pull out the blame card for things done 3+ generations ago, continue this no win status quo, or we can all adopt a realistic situation where responsibility falls back to the individual person, where everyone contributes to society, where there are no roadblocks to anyone of any different race given a disadvantage. Everyone should be treated exactly the same. One rule.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:54 PM   #78
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Steve, apparently you don't appreciate the contribution made to society by the Carpet Bagger Lawyer Complex, working in concert with the Bureaucratic Inertia Initiative.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:38 AM   #79
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Interesting points being raised here

This thread has been quite civil and has certainly (in my mind) enlightened me a bit concerning the issues. One thing that has bothered me concerning reserves, and Attawapaskit reserve in particular, is the conditions there. People get ahead in life by giving a damn, having some pride, goals, working together as a team, etc. With all the millions getting poured in to that reserve, you think someone could take the time to pick up the litter outside their homes! For a people that (supposedly) pride themselves on being connected to the land, you think they'd take better care of it where it matters most - right at the front door! ....if you have to, pay someone to clean it up, or better yet, have young offenders within their community do it.
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GreatWhiteNorth screwed with this post 01-21-2013 at 02:24 PM
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:37 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
Resource extraction campaign contribution complex.

Could you please explain where you are going with this comment? And please, honest language. No lawyer talk here, for me, please. Straight up.

Do you want resource extraction? If no, then, if that is the majority view, all money stops. This is what Canada in 2013, and ahead, is. Without this, we are done. Social programs, health care, foreign aid,,,,,"""everyfuckingthing""" . This is what we do. Our labour costs simply cannot compete with the 'Chinas' of the world. Won't happen.

If you do want resource extraction, do you think FN's get 100% of it? Fine,,,,,how do you feel, as the 1%ers of this new society, invested as soul supporters of the 99% of those not FN's? Because, other than the vast majority of this society somehow leaving this country and going???? somewhere else, what will they do?
Really, we have to deal with the present as the present situation. The wrongs done in the past were really bad [thanks catholic church]. And because people found North America500 yrs ago from the 'old world', and modern society became,,,,modern,,,,,there are VERY few societies today that can live a nomadic lifestyle, which is what you have unfortunately had taken from you. Now, we can continue to pull out the blame card for things done 3+ generations ago, continue this no win status quo, or we can all adopt a realistic situation where responsibility falls back to the individual person, where everyone contributes to society, where there are no roadblocks to anyone of any different race given a disadvantage. Everyone should be treated exactly the same. One rule.


I was under the impression that you titled this thread Idle No More concerns for a reason. My only purpose in posting on here was to try and move the discussion off of the "Indians want more free shit" meme that you folks seemed to have settled on. I see that I have mostly failed.

As for the "resource extraction campaign contribution complex" phrase, I really wonder if people think all of those lobbyists, excuse me corporate representatives, hang around Victoria, Edmonton and Ottawa because they like the weather. Or if those hacks at the C D Howe and Fraser Institutes pay themselves by selling ads on all that riveting prose they generate.

I know it is an easier position for you to argue but it is still erecting a straw man nonetheless, to say that if someone objects to resource extraction as currently practised that they are against resource extraction in general but no one, not me, not Idle No More is saying that. I can't speak for Idle No More but my objection to resource extraction as it is currently practised is the externalization of costs by the resource companies onto the general public in the form of environmental degradation. Mining has always been a dirty business mainly because addressing environmental concerns has a direct effect on the bottom line. Mining for old dinosaur goo is no different - the oil companies are as dirty as we allow them to be. Bill C-45 allows them to be a lot dirtier.

I'm of the opinion that Bill C-45 is of greater concern at the moment to our native population is because they live closer to the mines and the externalization of environmental costs affects them way before it does the rest of us.

And with that, I'm out.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:33 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunssd View Post
I was under the impression that you titled this thread Idle No More concerns for a reason. My only purpose in posting on here was to try and move the discussion off of the "Indians want more free shit" meme that you folks seemed to have settled on. I see that I have mostly failed.

As for the "resource extraction campaign contribution complex" phrase, I really wonder if people think all of those lobbyists, excuse me corporate representatives, hang around Victoria, Edmonton and Ottawa because they like the weather. Or if those hacks at the C D Howe and Fraser Institutes pay themselves by selling ads on all that riveting prose they generate.

I know it is an easier position for you to argue but it is still erecting a straw man nonetheless, to say that if someone objects to resource extraction as currently practised that they are against resource extraction in general but no one, not me, not Idle No More is saying that. I can't speak for Idle No More but my objection to resource extraction as it is currently practised is the externalization of costs by the resource companies onto the general public in the form of environmental degradation. Mining has always been a dirty business mainly because addressing environmental concerns has a direct effect on the bottom line. Mining for old dinosaur goo is no different - the oil companies are as dirty as we allow them to be. Bill C-45 allows them to be a lot dirtier.

I'm of the opinion that Bill C-45 is of greater concern at the moment to our native population is because they live closer to the mines and the externalization of environmental costs affects them way before it does the rest of us.

And with that, I'm out.
You could always start your own thread where you sing the " I love Al Gore and David Suzuki " songs
Also have you been in a modern mine ? or is your mineral extraction hatred solely based on news articles ?
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:44 AM   #82
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Definitely an axe to grind, that fellow. Probably does so with the chip on his shoulder. I suppose environmental lobbyists don't count, as they're not *evil*. Mining reclammation and bonding to make it happen have come a long way from the days he's referring to.

Quote:
My only purpose in posting on here was to try and move the discussion off of the "Indians want more free shit" meme that you folks seemed to have settled on. I see that I have mostly failed.
I missed this part, and agree with GreatWhiteNorth that this is a very civil - dare I say, Canadian - thread, and my take is the general theme is more "we're happy to help, spend this money and have these programs, but it's time to step up yourselves and break the cycle you're in". In the Yukon, aboriginals certainly are working towards that, and while there is a break-in period, it looks like it will work well. If Idle No More helps break the cycle in some way, great, but right now it seems like pointless complaining.

Brunssd comment's seem like an example of a very one-sided view, which is considerably easier to hold and argue, because everybody else has no point.

Just as Indians call someone who has 'gone white' an "apple" (red on the outside, white inside - often used to denigrate a successful person), there are people who empathize with any aboriginal plight. I used to work with a Jewish guy who consulted to bands, and it was definitely "aboriginals 100% correct, since they've been persecuted like Jews have". We even had a Chinese professional promoting himself as "hire me, since my ancestors were persecuted like you", and, oh yeah, I'll take a giant % of your grant money.

From sincere to rip-off artist, you get people who go totally to one side. Maybe that's sometimes needed to make a point, but it's not productive in the long run. A third consultant to aboriginals I knew was 100% after anything the band wanted, to the point that she would give up nothing in negotiations and was very unreasonable (the band position was a bargaining point, not 100% reasonable to start with) and you just couldn't deal with her. Whatever she was involved in failed, but she kept getting hired by bands due to her attitude. Spence is demonstrating some of that attitude.

One big difficulty, and I don't know where it comes from, is that a lot of bands are either unsopisticated in choosing or ? that they prefer a consultant/lawyer/whatever who is better at stroking them than getting results. Then they recommend the smarmy sucker to another band, that gets ripped off as well. Most bands who haven't joined the modern era really don't like being told that what they want isn't feasible/is wrong, so they keep hiring these dicks and waste money.

Off topic, but related. There are certainly people out there willing to take advantage of band money, and I bet some are making more off Idle No More right now....

There are enough potential advantages to being aboriginal, such as grants/funding/tax breaks/programs, that I know a few people who looked for enough ancestry to claim status. It's a tough road on some reserves, but often not due to a lack of external support. Whether that support is being provided in an appropriate way can certainly be argued.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:07 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunssd View Post
I was under the impression that you titled this thread Idle No More concerns for a reason. My only purpose in posting on here was to try and move the discussion off of the "Indians want more free shit" meme that you folks seemed to have settled on. I see that I have mostly failed.

As for the "resource extraction campaign contribution complex" phrase, I really wonder if people think all of those lobbyists, excuse me corporate representatives, hang around Victoria, Edmonton and Ottawa because they like the weather. Or if those hacks at the C D Howe and Fraser Institutes pay themselves by selling ads on all that riveting prose they generate.

I know it is an easier position for you to argue but it is still erecting a straw man nonetheless, to say that if someone objects to resource extraction as currently practised that they are against resource extraction in general but no one, not me, not Idle No More is saying that. I can't speak for Idle No More but my objection to resource extraction as it is currently practised is the externalization of costs by the resource companies onto the general public in the form of environmental degradation. Mining has always been a dirty business mainly because addressing environmental concerns has a direct effect on the bottom line. Mining for old dinosaur goo is no different - the oil companies are as dirty as we allow them to be. Bill C-45 allows them to be a lot dirtier.

I'm of the opinion that Bill C-45 is of greater concern at the moment to our native population is because they live closer to the mines and the externalization of environmental costs affects them way before it does the rest of us.

And with that, I'm out.

Thankyou for clarifying your views, and, in many ways, I agree with you. However,,,,there's still the underlying point I'm trying to make. Whether you are left, right, or centreist, we gotta eat, live, and, as all humans do, consume. Since the dawn of mankind, 65,000yrs ago in south central east Africa, 'man' has been consumers of carbon entity. Nomadic man moved to a new area to consume the plenty, until those resources were depleted, and this is the one and only reason 'man' did NOT stay in east Africa. our distant ancestors by their very consumption HAD to move on. And, as everyone including FN's migrated towards north America, over the land/ice bridge that once connected Alaska with Russia, and non FN's going through central and Northern Europe and eventually through Geenland, Iceland, and Labrador.

And so, all humans consume. And here we are in 2013. And here we must decide to return to the bronze age by stopping resource consumption, or by using it carefully to continue our modern lives. If we choose to not consume, at least let me leave to set up shop in an area of the world where freezing to death is not a possibility.

We are all in this together, we either make it happen, or the money supply train stops, for EVERYONE!!!!! It really is that simple. We can wax poetic about the good old days of throwing nets in the water and getting tons of fish. Too many people is essentially the cause. Overpopulation of the earth is not the fault of any particular ethnic group,,,,it's simply the success of those original nomads that started walking north all those neons ago, of which WE ARE ALL originated.
Blocking trains, blocking traffic, blocking access to public lands and submitting the media and the populace to fake starvation diets [salmon fish broth is full of protein and omega fat, perhaps a super food] is simply an irritant over the vast majority that will lead to reduced support for those who really need support, the non-chiefs and non-FN leaders who are being treated like slaves and pawns while horrible waste of fundage [all from resource extraction royalties I might add] continues with the tap wide open.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:45 PM   #84
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Just sped read this thread. Lot's of well thought out replies. That last one from Steve G should be printed out and carpet bombed across Canada so everyone can read it. A copy should also be tucked into the pocket of every new Canadian as they step onto our soil.
"Natives", hippies and spoiled children of all ages have to learn that milk doesn't come from a store. It gets sucked out of cow with all it's related ugliness.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:05 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorth View Post
This thread has been quite civil and has certainly (in my mind) enlightened me a bit concerning the issues. One thing that has bothered me concerning reserves, and Attawapaskit reserve in particular, is the conditions there. People get ahead in life by giving a damn, having some pride, goals, working together as a team, etc. With all the millions getting poured in to that reserve, you think someone could take the time to pick up the litter outside their homes! For a people that (supposedly) pride themselves on being connected to the land, you think they'd take better care of it where it matters most - right at the front door! ....if you have to, pay someone to clean it up, or better yet, have young offenders within their community do it.
Good post. Ive been to many reserves all over Saskatchewan, northern Alberta, and a few in souther BC, and each reserve is the same. Dirty, trash all over the place.

Another thing Ive noticed in every reserve home ive been in, plus just about each one Ive seen on tv, and on the net, is the home is kinda trashed and beat up, many with wood covering the windows, stuff like that, but I dont know If Ive ever seen one house that doesnt have a huge flat screen tv, with an xbox or ps3 sitting near the tv.

Little off topic I know, but check your priorities in life if you choose to live in a shithole house, and equip it with a kickass tv (that goes for any race or gender of a person!)
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:04 PM   #86
IKIGAI
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Nested Nations

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01...ations-report/

Well it shouldn't be long now before this collection of 'loose affiliates' turns into the Babooshka Doll of Aboriginal Nations.

Unfortunatly what this movement, and everyone before it, seems to dance around, is the issue of civil rights.

How long before the youth connected with this 'event', wrest control from the head-dresses and demand a change in demand to change, their future?
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:20 AM   #87
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Might be time to reiterate what the originators of this movement say it's about. From the Regina Leader-Post a few days ago:

REGINA -- The grassroots Idle No More movement founded in Saskatchewan is going global.

Speaking at the University of Regina on Friday, Sylvia McAdam, one of the founders, announced that organizers are in the midst of planning for a global solidarity day on Jan. 28. She intends to be in London, England.

In Regina, plans are for a “teach-in” at the Conexus Arts Centre, with a number of speakers, including an environmentalist, Metis leader, First Nations educator, and possibly a political refugee.

The plans were revealed when McAdam spoke at the Apathy into Action conference hosted by the Regina Public Interest Research Group, a U of R-based resource centre committed to social and environmental justice.

Asked by the group to trace the origins of Idle No More, McAdam admitted even she is surprised at how it has grown from four Saskatchewan women chatting about the federal government’s Bill C-45 to a national and now global movement. “We’ve also been invited to speak at the United Nations,” the diminutive, quiet-spoken McAdam added at the end of her lecture. No further details were provided.

The movement began when four women — McAdam, Sheelah McLean, Jessica Gordon, and Nina Wilson — began sharing their concerns about the federal omnibus bill.

“I’m not an activist,” McAdam conceded, adding she’s busy enough raising her family. But when a friend suggested McAdam check out Bill C-45, she became alarmed. “I have a law degree, and I couldn’t understand it,” she said. But what she came to grasp was that it carried the potential to weaken environment assessment requirements pertaining to water bodies, and undermine land management decisions on reserves. She worries it could open the door to, for example, a nuclear waste dump being located on reserve land if a small number of people voted in favour of such a move, even in the absence of chief and council support.

The discussions among the women gave way to an Idle No More Facebook page; “teach-ins” and rallies in Saskatoon and Regina followed in November and spread to other Saskatchewan cities. They began to think nationally, and the momentum spread, often driven by women, she noted. “It just exploded after Dec. 10,” with a national solidarity day. And now, through social media, the founders have been in discussions with people from around the globe, including England, Germany, Africa, Australia and New Zealand.

McAdam said there’s a misconception that Idle No More — a name the women chose not to dishonour the work done before them but stemming from their own desire not to sit idly by — is strictly an indigenous movement. She said it’s for anyone who believes in preserving water and land.

“We’re up against a very real threat,” she said.

McAdam recalled how her father used to pick up a handful of dirt and say that’s as much as any one person owns. “The rest is for the generations to come.”

McAdam said the founders of Idle No More have always encouraged a movement that is peaceful, legal, moral, and driven by love.

“We’re doing this for the love of all our children,” McAdam said.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:28 AM   #88
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thanks for that akduc
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:47 AM   #89
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a nuclear waste dump being located on reserve land if a small number of people voted in favour of such a move, even in the absence of chief and council support.
due to insider information and public knowledge of Uranium City this part of her statement forces me to conclude she is just another tree hugger and a native who is mad that she is not getting rich
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:03 PM   #90
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That statement, and what may lie behind it, is just nonsense. At best, well meaning ignorance, at worst, some other agenda. This is in line with the "band members will sell all their land and have nothing". No, they can lease and make money, but not sell. There are some good summaries on line, albeit the mainstream media ones are fairly left leaning and intimate some of the same scare tactics. When you go to a source, that's not what the bill says.....
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