The issues of fuel injectors and "adventure" bikes

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

You ludites are funny!

Jim

ludite huh ... then why is my R80 G/S is running the latest LiFePO4 batteries. it's the test bed for all sorts of bleeding edge LiFePO4 batteries.

but sometime I do carry a spare battery in case one doesn't have enough amp hours to start G/S on cold trips.

currently running Earth-X ETX36C which weights 3lb 11oz. it's got all sorts of reserve amp hour capacity to deliver huge cranking amps after cold camping.

Shorai LFX 36 has been in R80 G/S for the last year on a long term test. never missed a beat, also delivers huge cranking amps even in cold weather. for Adventure bikes the only LiFePO4 batteries that I can recommend so far, are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36.

checking out my lithium motorcycle testing thread ... link in sig.

Earth-X ETX36 next to Shorai LFX36 for size comparison




currently world's most advanced Li-ion charger/tester

[JimVonBaden]

That is the best you can do, a battery prone to failure in the cold?

Jim

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

That is the best you can do, a battery prone to failure in the cold?

Jim

nope ... most of my battery testing info are dumbed down to avoid putting folks to sleep.

if you want technical mumbo jumbo there's loads of places in my LiFePO4 testing thread to where using technical jargon was unavoidable. feel free to dig ... link is in sig

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by _cy_

ludite huh ... then why is my R80 G/S is running the latest LiFePO4 batteries. it's the test bed for all sorts of bleeding edge LiFePO4 batteries.

but sometime I do carry a spare battery in case one doesn't have enough amp hours to start G/S on cold trips.

currently running Earth-X ETX36C which weights 3lb 11oz. it's got all sorts of reserve amp hour capacity to deliver huge cranking amps after cold camping.

Shorai LFX 36 has been in R80 G/S for the last year on a long term test. never missed a beat, also delivers huge cranking amps even in cold weather. for Adventure bikes the only LiFePO4 batteries that I can recommend so far, are Earth-X ETX36 and Shorai LFX36.

checking out my lithium motorcycle testing thread ... link in sig.

currently world's most advanced Li-ion charger/tester

Yeah but when it goes wrong, what are you going to do then? I can fix a wet-cell lead acid battery with a pair of fencing pliers and a piece of chewing gum and be back on my merry way in no time, while your dreamliner is by the side of the road on fire.

Seriously - Interesting thread. Not sure I want to have to hook my battery up to a special charger to balance the cells every few weeks - but I'm sure that lead-acid batteries will be obsolete fairly soon.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

Yeah but when it goes wrong, what are you going to do then? I can fix a wet-cell lead acid battery with a pair of fencing pliers and a piece of chewing gum and be back on my merry way in no time, while your dreamliner is by the side of the road on fire.

Seriously - Interesting thread. Not sure I want to have to hook my battery up to a special charger to balance the cells every few weeks - but I'm sure that lead-acid batteries will be obsolete fairly soon.

Jim

[ttpete]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

Yeah but when it goes wrong, what are you going to do then? I can fix a wet-cell lead acid battery with a pair of fencing pliers and a piece of chewing gum and be back on my merry way in no time, while your dreamliner is by the side of the road on fire.

Seriously - Interesting thread. Not sure I want to have to hook my battery up to a special charger to balance the cells every few weeks - but I'm sure that lead-acid batteries will be obsolete fairly soon.

I think lead-acid batteries will survive, but the flooded-cell type won't. Sealed AGM types are so superior that they will be around for a long time.

I'd be interested to see a pictorial of your fence pliers/chewing gum fix on a battery. Maybe you could work on it

Motorcycle owners are their own worst enemies when it comes to battery care because most won't buy a 20 dollar battery tender and plug the bike in every time it's parked in the garage. Keeping the battery fully charged this way can triple battery life.

[corndog67]

Battery life.

96 CBR 900RR, stock Yuasa battery, I sold it to my brother in 09 or so, he rode it for 2 years, it had 60,000+ on it, he sold it, the guy that bought it is still on the stock battery. Never been on a tender.Jumped it once when he left the parking light on for several hours.

[corndog67]

Originally Posted by _cy_

LOTS of airheads have experienced electronic ignition failures. lots have had zero problems ... fact is points/condenser are fully serviceable in the middle of nowhere. vs electronic ignition failures, especially halls sensor on airheads are prone to failure. if that goes down you are walking! unless one is willing to spend $$$ on a beancan with field serviceable halls sensor.

have replaced hundreds of points/condensers ... have never seen a bad condenser. not saying they don't exist, but it's exceedingly rare to see an actual failed condenser.

we are talking adventure bikes .. right...



good logic



yup .. yanked it out and stuck in a beancan with points. R80G/S has never ran better.... easier to carry spare point/condenser vs spare electronic ignition parts. yes I know how to work on fuel injection ... same story, carbs can be serviced in the middle to no-where vs spare parts for fuel injection availability decides when it gets fixed... odds are someone's walking when fuel injection goes down

Lots of airheads.....well sorry, cy, I ride reliable bikes, not something that makes an inherently reliable electronic ignition, unreliable. As for putting points in a bike with electronic ignition, well, Mallory used to make a dual point setup for old cars, maybe you can adapt one to your old bike, twice as many moving parts, twice as much stuff to go wrong. I've got a 1970 Honda CT-70 with points, its' still running on the original points, I guess it's reliable, but your argument about it points being preferable to electronic ignitions, well, you're the only one convinced of that that I can see.

Good luck trying to sell something that you put in the "wayback machine" and converted to a prehistoric way of lighting the fire. Does any bike in the world come with points any more? I don't think so, at least that isn't made in India or somewhere. Are you still running non-radial tires? I bet you are. Come on, tell me why bias ply are better.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

Yeah but when it goes wrong, what are you going to do then? I can fix a wet-cell lead acid battery with a pair of fencing pliers and a piece of chewing gum and be back on my merry way in no time, while your dreamliner is by the side of the road on fire.

Seriously - Interesting thread. Not sure I want to have to hook my battery up to a special charger to balance the cells every few weeks - but I'm sure that lead-acid batteries will be obsolete fairly soon.

gads... what mis-information!

LifePO4 li-ion batteries are all but impossible to catch on fire... unlike Lithium cobalt li-ion batteries which can go into thermal runaway if any number things go wrong (explosion) like on 787.

currently running Earth-X ETX36C which has an internal BMS or battery management system, which keeps cells balanced. any quality conventional lead acid charger will do.

lead acid batteries are not going away anytime soon. in fact for most folks that need a battery on their motorcycle. my recommendation is a quality AGM first. for most folks saving lbs is not a big deal... others think otherwise.

for instance an Odyssey AGM to fit R80 G/S weight 22lb vs Earth-X ETX36 weight 3lb 11oz.... saving 18lbs without losing reliability. main drawback is costs $$$....

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by corndog67

Lots of airheads.....well sorry, cy, I ride reliable bikes, not something that makes an inherently reliable electronic ignition, unreliable. As for putting points in a bike with electronic ignition, well, Mallory used to make a dual point setup for old cars, maybe you can adapt one to your old bike, twice as many moving parts, twice as much stuff to go wrong. I've got a 1970 Honda CT-70 with points, its' still running on the original points, I guess it's reliable, but your argument about it points being preferable to electronic ignitions, well, you're the only one convinced of that that I can see.

Good luck trying to sell something that you put in the "wayback machine" and converted to a prehistoric way of lighting the fire. Does any bike in the world come with points any more? I don't think so, at least that isn't made in India or somewhere. Are you still running non-radial tires? I bet you are. Come on, tell me why bias ply are better.

gad zooks...

anyone riding a Ducati or KTM telling me about reliability???? huh???

R80 G/S have been ridden RTW by loads of folks. a properly prepped G/S is reliable as any modern bike.. probably more so...

yes.. G/S is running latest heidenau k60 scout tires .. no clue if they are radials...

bike mfg switched to electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition initially to help pass EPA regulations. And for higher profits of course. OEM wants things complex as possible to force buyer to go back to dealership. yes I know how to work on fuel injection and electronics.

what ever makes my R80 G/S more reliable, more serviceable in the middle of nowhere. goal is to go RTW with my R80 G/S ....
which was chosen as the best tool to get the job done ...

[corndog67]

Originally Posted by _cy_

gad zooks...

anyone riding a Ducati or KTM telling me about reliability???? huh???


bike mfg switched to electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition initially to help pass EPA regulations. And for higher profits of course. OEM wants things complex as possible to force buyer to go back to dealership. yes I know how to work on fuel injection and electronics.

what ever makes my R80 G/S more reliable, more serviceable in the middle of nowhere. goal is to go RTW with my R80 G/S ....
which was chosen as the best tool to get the job done ...

They didn't change to electronic to make more profits, they did it to make them more reliable. They aren't making you go to the dealer, they are making you buy a $15 multimeter, and judging by your posts, you've got a couple of those. You'd think with your electrical/battery experience, you'd realize that electronics are more reliable and cheaper to make, repair and replace than an electromechanical setup like points. You're crazy. And so far, my Duc and my KTM are damned reliable. KTM has carbs, just did a rejet this weekend, I'd rather just program it on the computer, but didn't have a choice in the matter.

And even the new BMWs are more reliable than your R/80. Come on man, move into this century. You'd probably like it, you don't have to work on things like points any more. The only thing I replace on my sleds is tires and an occasional chain. The valve adjustment on the Duc, 4 valve mind you, has not changed in 20,000 miles.

Anyway, have fun out there, that's our common goal. If you like changing and adjusting points, have at it. Meanwhile, I'll just do third gear wheelies on the KTM and make a lot of noise on the Duc.

[EmpireExpeditions]

I carry a tiny multimeter that cost just a few £££ on eBay. It's all you need to diagnose the sensors or any other aspect of the electrical system.
Diagnosing the Ecu is simple (if it doesn't do anything instead of its startup test then it's foobarred and needs replacing. Which is uber rare these days).

I can understand those who dealt with points and a carb finding the efi system bewildering, but it's just a question of learning how it works just as you had to learn how points and carbs work. A lot of ppl seem reluctant to learn and just write it off.

I also appreciate early electronics were not especially reliable, so ppl has a broken down bike in the mid 80s and no idea how to fix it. But it's 2012 and electronics have moved on.

They switched to efi primarily for emissions followed by reliability.

Best bike to have is the one you can fix, be it carb or efi.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by corndog67

They didn't change to electronic to make more profits, they did it to make them more reliable. They aren't making you go to the dealer, they are making you buy a $15 multimeter, and judging by your posts, you've got a couple of those. You'd think with your electrical/battery experience, you'd realize that electronics are more reliable and cheaper to make, repair and replace than an electromechanical setup like points. You're crazy. And so far, my Duc and my KTM are damned reliable. KTM has carbs, just did a rejet this weekend, I'd rather just program it on the computer, but didn't have a choice in the matter.

And even the new BMWs are more reliable than your R/80. Come on man, move into this century. You'd probably like it, you don't have to work on things like points any more. The only thing I replace on my sleds is tires and an occasional chain. The valve adjustment on the Duc, 4 valve mind you, has not changed in 20,000 miles.

Anyway, have fun out there, that's our common goal. If you like changing and adjusting points, have at it. Meanwhile, I'll just do third gear wheelies on the KTM and make a lot of noise on the Duc.

let's hear why most used Ducati for sale have really low miles ... 20k miles on a Ducati is a LOT of miles

OEM changed to electronics to gain accuracy in delivery of both fuel and ignition. both necessary to pass EPA regulation. OEM in their quest for higher profits developed a strategy of planned obsolescence. for instance designs that required more and more specialized tools to service.

little things like producing bearings without grease ports. knowing that when factory grease does wear out. a major failure resulting in a forced trip to dealership. final drives are famous for taking dumps ... needing major service every 50k miles or so... VS R80 G/S monolever final drive are bathe in oil and typically last life of bike.

new BMW motorcycle are among the worst .. sure all those fancy gizmo like traction control, ABS, etc are super cool... but ah... what happens when they go down... ever priced out a new ABS control module? take a guess where that part is coming from?

you are dreaming if you think new BMW motorcyles are more reliable than my R80 G/S. this is assuming both are in same condition. for instance my R80 G/S has gone though a frame-off rebuilt ... engine balanced to 1/10 gram, tranny refreshed, new wiring harness, all bearings/seals replaced, shocks front and rear revalved, upgrade alternator, new cables, carbs refresh, etc. etc.

all it takes is one major breakdown to financially end a trip. there's many documented instances of almost new R800GS engines taking a dump in the middle of no where. but hey it's a new BMW GS motorcycle and supposed to go anywhere... it's not suppose to break... arggghhhh.

did you know R800GS doesn't contain a knock sensor... so if/when one gets a load of bad fuel ... resulting knocking can quickly destroy engine. it's easy to miss when one is wearing helmets...most importantly most folks are not aware of this issue... BMW is certainly not going to advertise this... new BMW ... more reliable than my old R80 G/S .... ya right..

by the way ... if one's R800GS ever start running funny after a refuel... STOP .... don't proceed, take your helmet off listen to motor for knocks as motor is gently rev'd up. if you hear knocks ... drain fuel, put in clean fuel, go on your way vs knocks can destroy your engine in short order!

[corndog67]

Originally Posted by _cy_

OEM changed to electronics to gain accuracy in delivery of both fuel and ignition. both necessary to pass EPA regulation. OEM in their quest for higher profits developed a strategy of planned obsolescence. for instance designs that required more and more specialized tools to service.

little things like producing bearings without grease ports. knowing that when factory grease does wear out. a major failure resulting in a forced trip to dealership. final drives are famous for taking dumps ... needing major service every 50k miles or so... VS R80 G/S monolever final drive are bathe in oil and typically last life of bike.

new BMW motorcycle are among the worst .. sure all those fancy gizmo like traction control, ABS, etc are super cool... but ah... what happens when they go down... ever priced out a new ABS control module? take a guess where that part is coming from?

you are dreaming if you think new BMW motorcyles are more reliable than my R80 G/S. this is assuming both are in same condition. for instance my R80 G/S has gone though a frame-off rebuilt ... engine balanced to 1/10 gram, tranny refreshed, new wiring harness, all bearings/seals replaced, shocks front and rear revalved, upgrade alternator, new cables, carbs refresh, etc. etc.

all it takes is one major breakdown to financially end a trip. there's many documented instances of R800GS engines taking a dump in the middle of no where.

did you know R800GS doesn't contain a knock sensor... so if/when one gets a load of bad fuel ... resulting knocking can quickly destroy engine. it's easy to miss when one is wearing helmets...most importantly most folks are not aware of this issue... BMW is certainly not going to advertise this... new BMW ... more reliable than my old R80 G/S .... ya right..

by the way ... if one's R800GS ever start running funny after a refuel... STOP .... don't proceed, take your helmet off listen to motor for knocks as motor is gently rev'd up. if you hear knocks ... drain fuel, put in clean fuel, go on your way vs knocks can destroy your engine in short order!

OK, OK, we'll agree to disagree. As for rebuilding something from the frame up, well, I don't get attached to my vehicles, I tend to get 2 or 3 or 4 bikes a year, and it's a losing proposition to put more and more money in them. I beat on them for a while, then I unload them, hopefully, for the same or close to what I paid for them. But the Ducati is the exception. I've had it for 5 years, although I'm thinking of selling it, I want a Tuono V4. I'm waiting for some used ones to start showing up, since I don't want to take the 40% hit rolling them out the showroom door.

Then again, I bought an XR75 over the weekend, I might pull it apart and get some stuff powdercoated. There seems to be a cult following on those, same with the CT-70.

Have fun on your GS. I think you might like a newer one though, they are fairly fast, and handle pretty well.

[EmpireExpeditions]

I agree that knock sensors should be fitted. Obviously they don't exist on older non efi bikes either so both could go bang.
I'm thinking of fitting a knock sensor and light to my dash...