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Old 01-21-2013, 04:55 AM   #226
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:30 AM   #227
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Good one! Look at a unicycle. Pedal back a little, lean forward pedal forward. Counter pedeling. You can't just pedal forward or you will fall on your azz

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Old 01-21-2013, 07:52 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Valker View Post
...but if it has enough gyros inside that it remains perfectly upright, then he would never actually turn. He could use body movement or dragging a foot to force it onto another path, but the old and new paths would be straight lines separated by the body movements.Leaning is required for an actual turn to take place.
Sure, if they were all just static spinning gyros, but like the hubble telescope, perhaps the gyros can be stopped, started, and turned.

I'm just guessing here, but can easily imagine that they can be manipulated to cause the machine to lean, or stand up. Instead of counter steering, it'd be counter gyroing.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:33 PM   #229
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It was written above that the purpose of countersteering was to get the front tire's contact patch out from under the bike's center of gravity so the bike would lean into the turn. True. If the bars are steered into the turn centrifugal force will fling the bike and rider off into the weeds on the outside of the turn. But.....if the bike is going slowly enough so the centrifugal force is very minor, the turn can be accomplished with shifting of body weight and just turning the bars into the turn. This is why we see some lower speed limits for countersteering. It isn't about the speed per se, it is about handling the various forces at the speed we're running.

We
don't countersteer to maintain a straight run, but our bike's front suspension geometry is doing it for us. This is the purpose of trail--constantly self correcting steering. The front end is always oscillating to hold us on an average straight course. We can counter to start a mild turn just by light force to prevent the trail correction to one side.

With the knowledge that every single track vehicle needs to be countersteered to turn it, it is interesting to watch "non-countersteerers" make turns. I saw one guy who started each turn with a head lean into the turn, then his shoulders followed, then his arms followed the shoulders, and unknowingly he countersteered. Others use the body weight shift or shoulder shift and end up with their arms pushing the bars to countersteer while they insist that the whole concept is bunk.

About learning any movement---research has shown that it takes several hundred (correct) repetitions of a movement to create the new neural connections in the brain to "learn" the movement and make it automatic. Until then we have to think to make the movement which is slow and tiring, and two things can not be thought of at the same time. It takes several thousand repetitions to change a movement, to re-learn, to change a bad habit. If one understands why intentional countersteering with the hands must be used for very quick corrections, then it can be realized why it must be practiced to learn. And, practice countersteering harder to tighten a turn as well as pulling back on the inside bar to widen the turn--both may be needed to miss an obstruction.

A bicycle needs to be countersteered, of course, but it is so sensitive that very little countersteering effort is needed, plus the ratio of rider weight to bike weight makes rider weight movements more significant. I most notice the countersteering when I'm coasting on a straight downhill with a turn ahead. No other movements are needed to turn except a brief slight pressure forward on the grip to the inside of the turn. There are some rural areas in Europe where they have old style bicycle type riders on sliders for the winter. No wheels. These must be countersteered as well.

Gyroscopic precession (not procession) takes part, but I still don't understand if precession is a force to turn the rotating wheel if the axle is tilted, or if precession tilts the axle when the rotating wheel is turned.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:24 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post
It was written above that the purpose of countersteering was to get the front tire's contact patch out from under the bike's center of gravity so the bike would lean into the turn. True. If the bars are steered into the turn centrifugal force will fling the bike and rider off into the weeds on the outside of the turn. But.....if the bike is going slowly enough so the centrifugal force is very minor, the turn can be accomplished with shifting of body weight and just turning the bars into the turn. This is why we see some lower speed limits for countersteering. It isn't about the speed per se, it is about handling the various forces at the speed we're running.

Gyroscopic precession (not procession) takes part, but I still don't understand if precession is a force to turn the rotating wheel if the axle is tilted, or if precession tilts the axle when the rotating wheel is turned.
Sorry this came out a lot longer than I wanted it to. Again!!!!!!

Counter steering works at all speeds. If you're moving at all its working. You are on round tires so there is nothing to push off of to make the bike lean by shifting body weight without pushing the bike in the opposite direction. You probably could start to lean in one direction to very small extent on a very heavy motorcycle where the extra mass will resist being pushed around by a lighter rider or if you have a flat profile car tire on the rear. However, you would never be able to shift back to leaning the opposite way. For example if you start falling right just the slightest amount (I mean the smallest amount you could imagine) at 1mph you will inevitable continue falling right since your on round tires..... unless you counter steer. You can't be leaning right with gravity pulling you to the ground and suddenly decide to lean the opposite direction on round tires without some other force coming into play. Also thanks to the rake and trail a counter steer input automatically happens whether you make it or not at any speed. Without counter steering it would be completely impossible to ride at 1 or 2 mph but it can obviously be done.

Gyroscopic precession works because when you force a rotating mass off axis it tilts as well. In terms of a motorcycle if you tilt the axis (turn the handlebars) to the left on a horizontal plane, the gyroscopic force of the wheel will force the axle to tilt to the right on a vertical plane. So it literally leans the motorcycle by the forces moving through that narrow axle your wheel is spinning on. Its really easy to feel and see if you have a bicycle wheel. Hold it on each end of the axle, get the tire spinning, and try turning the axle left or right the same way a handlebar input would. Compared to the effect that inertia of the entire motorcycle has with counter steering the gyroscopic precession is a pretty small effect until some very high speeds. Its still not a necessary force to have at all to make counter steering work.

In terms of math, it would take the greatest minds in calculous months to figure out the formulas to get definitive numbers as to how much all of the 4 (or more) different factors make counter-steering work. Each of those factors are all changing constantly in effectiveness depending on the speed your traveling from 0.1mph all the way up to top speed. Some are more prominent at low speeds and have almost no effect at all when reaching higher speeds. So trying to "know" the physics behind it is a COMPLETE waste of time. Getting a basic understanding of how it works can help, but ultimately you just need to practice it. With how many people successfully ride motorcycles without knowing what counter steering is; you obviously don't need to understand the physics of how it works either! And for the record I never learned much calculous

If you want to see counter steering in action without the annoying complicated bullshit that a spinning tire causes you can just watch this in action. At 1:41 you can see a perfectly clear counter steer input in action with zero gyroscopic precession or any sort of static traction with a rolling tire on pavement. Its just a ski sliding on ice.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:50 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
Sorry this came out a lot longer than I wanted it to. Again!!!!!!

Counter steering works at all speeds. If you're moving at all its working. You are on round tires so there is nothing to push off of to make the bike lean by shifting body weight without pushing the bike in the opposite direction. You probably could start to lean in one direction to very small extent on a very heavy motorcycle where the extra mass will resist being pushed around by a lighter rider or if you have a flat profile car tire on the rear. However, you would never be able to shift back to leaning the opposite way. For example if you start falling right just the slightest amount (I mean the smallest amount you could imagine) at 1mph you will inevitable continue falling right since your on round tires..... unless you counter steer. You can't be leaning right with gravity pulling you to the ground and suddenly decide to lean the opposite direction on round tires without some other force coming into play. Also thanks to the rake and trail a counter steer input automatically happens whether you make it or not at any speed. Without counter steering it would be completely impossible to ride at 1 or 2 mph but it can obviously be done.

Gyroscopic precession works because when you force a rotating mass off axis it tilts as well. In terms of a motorcycle if you tilt the axis (turn the handlebars) to the left on a horizontal plane, the gyroscopic force of the wheel will force the axle to tilt to the right on a vertical plane. So it literally leans the motorcycle by the forces moving through that narrow axle your wheel is spinning on. Its really easy to feel and see if you have a bicycle wheel. Hold it on each end of the axle, get the tire spinning, and try turning the axle left or right the same way a handlebar input would. Compared to the effect that inertia of the entire motorcycle has with counter steering the gyroscopic precession is a pretty small effect until some very high speeds. Its still not a necessary force to have at all to make counter steering work.

In terms of math, it would take the greatest minds in calculous months to figure out the formulas to get definitive numbers as to how much all of the 4 (or more) different factors make counter-steering work. Each of those factors are all changing constantly in effectiveness depending on the speed your traveling from 0.1mph all the way up to top speed. Some are more prominent at low speeds and have almost no effect at all when reaching higher speeds. So trying to "know" the physics behind it is a COMPLETE waste of time. Getting a basic understanding of how it works can help, but ultimately you just need to practice it. With how many people successfully ride motorcycles without knowing what counter steering is; you obviously don't need to understand the physics of how it works either! And for the record I never learned much calculous

If you want to see counter steering in action without the annoying complicated bullshit that a spinning tire causes you can just watch this in action. At 1:41 you can see a perfectly clear counter steer input in action with zero gyroscopic precession or any sort of static traction with a rolling tire on pavement. Its just a ski sliding on ice.
Man, too many words and concepts and all. You can demonstrate counter-steering by simply balancing a broom from its handle, with the handle on the palm of your hand. Move the handle (your palm) right to lean the broom left and you will go left...
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #232
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Since my first MSF class 25 years ago, I've always believed, understood, and experienced countersteering and swerving. I know I use it always...except when I'm moving very slowly. It seems at very slow speeds, steering the motorcycle seems to work rather than countersteering. Does everyone experience this?
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:29 AM   #233
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NO one experiences this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinz View Post
Since my first MSF class 25 years ago, I've always believed, understood, and experienced countersteering and swerving. I know I use it always...except when I'm moving very slowly. It seems at very slow speeds, steering the motorcycle seems to work rather than countersteering. Does everyone experience this?


Not true.

Even at very slow speed a counter steer (however slight) is engaged or you would tip over to the outside.

You can lean the bike and start off from a stop with the front tire turned in the direction of the turn... BUT if you are moving EVEN SLOWLY a counter steer is engaged in some fashion.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:23 AM   #234
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Doesn't Physics kick in around 5 mph?
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:41 PM   #235
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Doesn't Physics kick in around 5 mph?
By my calculations...... exactly 7.33333333333 feet per second
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:03 PM   #236
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Interesting dynamics in this discussion. A lot of people presume to know what the OP "needs" and how he "needs to learn it". Or how other people should think and learn about these things. It's a piss-poor instructor that demands the student think and learn the way the instructor thinks and learned.

Knowing how to ride a bicycle teaches us just enough about how to ride a motorcycle to get some people into trouble. Yes, they are both single track vehicles and the physics involved has much in common but the sensory feedback and self-righting tendencies are different enough to make riding a motorcycle at speed a different animal. The classic new owner that crashes the bike on the way home from the dealership is a good example of this reality.

Some people are not scientifically inclined. That, in and of itself, doesn't make them bad people or unintelligent, but it does affect how they view technical explanations of physical realities. Other people need to "wrap their minds around" why these things are true. Not in order to ride a bike at easy paces but to really learn to trust the things about motorcycle dynamics that are counterintuitive.

Presumably we all learned to ride a bicycle before we tried to ride a motorcycle and yet in some cases even after decades of experience, some people still don't believe that a single track vehicle can only initiate a turn via counter-steering. Riding a motorcycle is not the same as riding a bicycle except under some very narrow circumstances. Learning to ride a motorcycle at the edge requires different skills, techniques and, dare I say, knowledge.

I'm not arguing that these things must be practiced under stressing conditions in order to be fully internalized or that internalization isn't a good thing. As I ride, I don't consciously counter-steer. But I do counter-steer all the time. And if I think about what I'm doing, I'll be aware that I'm counter-steering. Being aware doesn't slow me down and doesn't mean I don't have the reflexive response. It just means that I am able to counter-steer instinctively and I understand the physics.



To the OP: Yes, you should be able to consciously counter-steer. It would be a good thing for you to be aware of your counter-steering if that helps you internalize the technique. No, you don't have to fully understand the physics of how a motorcycle turns, unless that knowledge will help you enjoy the experience more deeply and/or make you a safer rider.

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That is the case if one did not actually ever aggressively ride a bicycle - being one of those people who pedal their ass around at a snail's pace on some high handlebared two wheeler like so many do. Cyclists are those riding roads down hill at 40-50 mph with curves in the road, mountain biking. and BMX stuff, actual challenging riding. Stuff like that. Your classic example of the new motorcycle owner crashing was likely a bicycle "pedaler", not actually riding a bicycle in any aggressive fashion. Most people who mention bicycle experience usually are bringing it up because they have ridden bicycles aggressively. They practice countersteering as a single track vehicle require at the speeds they ride. They know how to instinctively steer a single track vehicle.

When it comes to differences, did you ever see a bicyclist in a roadrace hanging a knee out, just like a road racer? Similar intent there, to keep a wider contact patch on the road, not ride up the edge of the tire too far. Of course there are some more extremes that each will have due to differences in variables, but still a single track is a single track, the way they steer is essentially the same. Some of the variables change in magnitude, but are not elliminated. If you ever coasted down a hill on your motorcycle in neutral you are essentially on a 500 lb bicycle (no power to the wheel) with fat tires. The racing bicycles have the same quick actions as sportbikes because they have similar rake (bicycles call it out from horizontal at 75-76 degrees, motorcycles call it from vertical at 24-25 degrees), not sure about the trail, but I'll bet that isn't too far off either. Tourers run more relaxed rake and trail similar to a touring bicycle. The biggest differences are tire width and gross weight along with center of gravity when it comes to steering.

There are a lot of ties from bicycling to motorcycling and vice versa. Eli Tomac the current leader in AMA Supercross happens to be John Tomac's son, John being a long time mountain bike racer and builder. Gary Fisher of Fisher bicycles was a former AMA flat tracker, one featured in a big get off in On Any Sunday. Mert Lawill is known in the bicycle community for building some really trick bicycle suspension and components and his son has had a pretty good career as a mountain biker. These are just a few. I know a number of motorcycle racers who went to bicycles at one point for any variety of reasons. Numerous riders and racers of motorcycles use bicycling as a source of work out and also a source of enjoyment and I would venture to say the experiences are very similar. The ties are there, the skills obviously transfer.

It is great to be aware of countersteering, but to make it a distraction trying to "science it out" for every turn is foolhardy. If one comprehends it, then play with it, and make it apply to instant reactions. That is what I've been saying. I'm betting there are some seriously talented riders that couldn't tell you anything about countersteering, but do it fluently. It isn't necessary to know it, just to do it.

When one has some serious bicycle experience the skills do transfer. I've seen it. Cyclists that make the jump effortlessly. Do not mistake those cyclists for people who just pedal around usually in too high a gear or on a beach bomber with the seat 6" too low and a pair of high bars at about 6 mph.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:15 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinz View Post
Since my first MSF class 25 years ago, I've always believed, understood, and experienced countersteering and swerving. I know I use it always...except when I'm moving very slowly. It seems at very slow speeds, steering the motorcycle seems to work rather than countersteering. Does everyone experience this?
This is not at all wrong, but it is not actually what it seems. It is turning the front wheel in the direction wanted to go when going under say 10 mph (might be lower than that) versus the turning in the opposite direction associated with higher speeds.

It all depends on speed. When trials riding at 3-5 mph it was definitely turning the front wheel in the direction of the intended turn. I want to turn right I turn right, left to go left. But there is a transition point. In addition, there is some counterweighting which is part of the countersteering since countersteering isn't just the front fork. If the rider turns the front wheel right, they have to lean in otherwise the bike would actually tip over to the left. The bike WILL tip to the opposite direction unless the rider counters the action - again this is all at extremely low speeds of trials riding and those really REALLY slow turns on other motorcycles.

That effect goes away around maybe 10-15 mph, then the whole left to go right/right to go left starts.

So technically you do TURN in the direction you want to go at extremely low speeds, but there still is some of the countersteering to avoid crashing. Lots and lots of physics involved in it all.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:54 PM   #238
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If you want to see what speed counter steering begins to work at try this.

Go get on your bike, and stand it up. Put the kickstand up. Now put your feet on the pegs and balance.

Why is it so hard to balance? Because counter steering doesn't work when you are stopped and shifting your weight is not a very effective way to balance.

If the bike is rolling at all and you find it easier to balance than when it was stopped, that's because countersteering works as soon as the bike begins moving.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:40 PM   #239
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That is the case if one did not actually ever aggressively ride a bicycle - being one of those people who pedal their ass around at a snail's pace on some high handlebared two wheeler like so many do.
And that is exactly the group to which I was referring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Cyclists are those riding roads down hill at 40-50 mph with curves in the road, mountain biking. and BMX stuff, actual challenging riding. Stuff like that.
My post did not refer to, nor was it intended to imply any correlation relative to the skills that "cyclist" may or may not have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Your classic example of the new motorcycle owner crashing was likely a bicycle "pedaler", not actually riding a bicycle in any aggressive fashion.
Yes, exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Most people who mention bicycle experience usually are bringing it up because they have ridden bicycles aggressively.
Really, you think so?? Such has not been my experience. A very high percentage of people that ride motorcycles, knew how to ride a bicycle at a basic level before they started riding motorcycles. I'm confident that a much smaller fraction of those people were skilled cyclists before they started riding motorcycles. Again, I was talking about people that know how to ride a bicycle, not highly-skilled cyclists, but people who learned how to ride a bicycle as a kid and then assume that they will know how to operate a motorcycle because of that limited experience.

I have no issue with your description of how experienced cyclists approach riding bicycles at a high / aggressive level or how those skills relate to motorcycle dynamics. My comments about bicyclists was about what you've called "peddlers". Fair enough ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It is great to be aware of countersteering, but to make it a distraction trying to "science it out" for every turn is foolhardy. If one comprehends it, then play with it, and make it apply to instant reactions. That is what I've been saying. I'm betting there are some seriously talented riders that couldn't tell you anything about countersteering, but do it fluently. It isn't necessary to know it, just to do it.
Isn't that exactly what I've said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedl
To the OP: Yes, you should be able to consciously counter-steer. It would be a good thing for you to be aware of your counter-steering if that helps you internalize the technique. No, you don't have to fully understand the physics of how a motorcycle turns, unless that knowledge will help you enjoy the experience more deeply and/or make you a safer rider.
Did I "science it out" in my language to the OP?

Quote:
When one has some serious bicycle experience the skills do transfer. I've seen it. Cyclists that make the jump effortlessly. Do not mistake those cyclists for people who just pedal around usually in too high a gear or on a beach bomber with the seat 6" too low and a pair of high bars at about 6 mph.
I have not nor would I make such a mistake. I know how to ride a bicycle. I am not a cyclist, but I know enough cyclists to have great respect for their mad skills and courage that far eclipses mine relative to riding human power bikes at speed and over obstacles. I stand by my original post within the scope of the thread at that point. Feel free to read "basic bicycle riding skills" wherever I said "how to ride a bicycle" if that makes my post easier on your eyes.

cheers,
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:06 PM   #240
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By my calculations...... exactly 7.33333333333 feet per second
Isn't that also the airspeed of an unladen swallow?
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