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Old 01-23-2013, 12:33 AM   #15556
Dallara
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Wicked Hey, an idea!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
Nope, Sorry that's just YCCT in disguise. It limits the power to the first three appliances.

Does that mean if you do an "Inverter Jumper Mod" and short the inverter leads it will suddenly run more appliances, be smoother, quieter, be faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and be able to leap tall buildings with a single bound?

And I wonder if any certain "operator malfunction" will cause it to have a "hard starting problem"?


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Old 01-23-2013, 12:59 AM   #15557
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OK. That hard start thing.....

I have posted this over at the "Super Ten Cult HQ". Thought I would post it here.

I will be posting up another one once I can "reliably" duplicate it.

I have spent the last few days off and on, trying to induce the much hyped "hard start".

I have never had a "hard start" but have just managed to induce one.

Took a while to figure out what it WASN'T.

Here are the results..



Success!



Now all I want is for someone else to try and duplicate it given the above clues..

Since there was so many people willing to bash holes in sumps, crash the bikes in the sand, bend wheels and dent skid plates it's the least I could do.

I haven't checked out the price of a new starter motor though Please don't tell me.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:35 AM   #15558
Dallara
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Eek Hard Start??? Where???

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I've watched your videos twice now, Graham...

And I can't see where you can call what you encountered in the second one a "hard start". The guys who say they have encountered it claim they had to crank and crank and crank, often to the point of nearly killing the battery, before it started... And to get it to start they had to either use WOT or pull the FI fuse.

I didn't see your bike need anything like that in the vid.

Of course, you and I have both been following this issue for a while now, and neither you or I have ever had the so-called "hard starting problem". The more I see in that thread over on the Super Tenere forum the more I am becoming increasingly convinced it is, indeed, an "operator malfunction problem" (or culmination of several "operator errors") suffered by a truly tiny, nearly insignificant, number of owners.

Just my two centavos... YMMV.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:50 AM   #15559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
~

And to get it to start they had to either use WOT or pull the FI fuse.
I used half throttle at No2-1:19 to get it to fire..

All the bikes will also be slightly different, but I think it helps A LOT to find out where the blind alleys are and narrow down the list of REAL possibilities.

One thing I can say is that software will be copied form one ECU to another without any changes unless they are revised. Sensors and adjustable components and motors will be the only variation.

If you know how to deal with it before it gets bad then it may never happen.

If you have an affinity with motors you may just never get the problem in the first place. One of the things I leaned designing consumer equipment was that in the beginning I was clueless as how clueless some people were in regards what I was designing. That is not a put down it's just that over the years you just do things certain ways because you have made them almost subconscious actions and never think about it.

So I have at least a clue now what may cause it and a good idea what has no effect.

Just listening to how the motor starts is a good clue.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:10 AM   #15560
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No petrol money?

Invalid test!

The fuel tank was empty, so how could you induce a flooded situation? All you have proven is that it will run on the smell of an oily rag

You could have at least sprung for a few dollars of fuel!





Seriously though, I've had my bike for over 2 years now and never had the problem. So it's clearly only an issue with bikes that don't have hazzard lights and "flash to pass" switches


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Old 01-23-2013, 03:30 AM   #15561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn C View Post
Invalid test!

The fuel tank was empty,
Saving up for a new battery
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:23 AM   #15562
Dallara
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Laugh Clueless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
I used half throttle at No2-1:19 to get it to fire..

All the bikes will also be slightly different, but I think it helps A LOT to find out where the blind alleys are and narrow down the list of REAL possibilities.

One thing I can say is that software will be copied form one ECU to another without any changes unless they are revised. Sensors and adjustable components and motors will be the only variation.

If you know how to deal with it before it gets bad then it may never happen.

If you have an affinity with motors you may just never get the problem in the first place. One of the things I leaned designing consumer equipment was that in the beginning I was clueless as how clueless some people were in regards what I was designing. That is not a put down it's just that over the years you just do things certain ways because you have made them almost subconscious actions and never think about it.

So I have at least a clue now what may cause it and a good idea what has no effect.

Just listening to how the motor starts is a good clue.


Oh, yeah... I saw where you had the extra eight revolutions to crank it and said you used half-throttle on the vid, but again to me that was just a *slightly* more difficult start - not the horrendous, hand-wringing, fear-inducing, anxiety-laden cranking-and-cranking-to-no-avail "hard starting problem" some of these folks are fretting over. As you say, those with "an affinity with motors" probably never let themselves get way down some "blind alley" to a non-start, so for them if the engine labors slightly to start it's a non-issue.

I totally agree with everything else you said... Especially the part about so many being "clueless". Back when I was a mechanic, and then a dealer (both for motorcycles and then cars), I can't tell you how many times I watched folks do things I thought were so daft I couldn't imagine where they learned it. All too often I forgot that perhaps they were not raised around mechanical objects and devices, tinkering and learning about how and why they work. So often they treated their vehicles as mere *appliances*, and simply expected them to work no matter how ham-fisted or illogically they treated them. Even when you often showed them the proper way to handle a situation many of them would bow up and try and tell you "Well, it should work the way I'm doing it. I shouldn't have to pay attention to anything with that vehicle. It should just work perfectly no matter what I do!", and they'd be damned defensive and adamant about it!

Many times it was situations similar, IMHO, to this one... They weren't trying to do anything *wrong*. It was just a series of very small errors, most of which were completely inadvertent and unintended, that piled up to produce a problem. They would wonder why the mechanic couldn't duplicate the problem, often even after many visits to the service department where they became more and more enraged. Sometimes multiple mechanics, the service writers, the service manager, the factory rep, etc. all couldn't reproduce the problem... All too often the owner couldn't even reproduce the problem while at our facility, but as I learned more about issues like these I began to notice that the owner often acted much differently around the dealership than he did away from there. I can't tell you how many times we found out that that owner was doing things far differently away from the shop - and didn't even realize it - and that's what was causing the problem.

No doubt we'll hear more about the "hard starting problem". All I can say is that in nearly a year-and-a-half of ownership and nearly 27,000 miles my Super Tenere's engine, and starting, have been flawless. It has started each and every time with alacrity and cheerful readiness regardless of the temperature outside, whether it was just washed or not, and no matter how long it's been sitting.

Of course, I don't sit in my garage and cycle the key endlessly on-and-off, nor do I ever fire it up, then on purpose, shut it off after only 20 seconds or so... And even repeat that cycle numerous times.

Dallara



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Dallara screwed with this post 01-23-2013 at 08:31 AM
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:19 AM   #15563
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Staintune Adaptaion From Ducati ST4

I purchased a brand new in the box L/H side Staintune pipe for a Ducati ST4 off Ebay, total cost to me was $250.00 cdn including shipping and about 2 hours labour after work. Here are the video's for sound bites, one with the restrictor in and one without. You need to have proper speakers with lots of bass to get the full effect or a set of head phones or ear buds. This pipe has a very throaty, bassy big V8 sound with this engine. No more sneaking out of the camp ground at 6:00 AM un-noticed. Thats OK I dont get up that early anyhow. The signal light is being replace by one that wont be in the exhaust gas flow. Supposed to be 95 db restrictor in (which is legal here) and 98 db with it out. I am sure this will double my perceived HP.....lol





Sorry, not sure why the second video advances to the next when done, not meant to offend. If anyone knows how to stop the next video playing let me know and I will fix it.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:50 AM   #15564
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hard start

Dallara and Graham,

I have seen the hard start problem twice. Once in 19,000 miles on my S10 and once on a pre owned one at the dealership. I am sure that I know what lead to it on my bike and am reasonably sure that I know what caused it on the pre owned one at the dealer. On mine, it was when I was installing aftermarket heated grips. For relay trigger power, I used the circuit on one of the supplied aux connectors that is only hot after the engine starts. I used that for the signal wire to energize a relay which supplies power to my heated grip switch. In verifying that power source, I started the cold engine long enough to check voltage on that wire with my volt meter, then shut the bike down. When I finished the heated grip install, perhaps an hour later, and was ready to try it out the bike would not start until I tried with WOT and cranked for quite a while and then it started with a lot of unburned fuel coming out of the exhaust, an obvious flooded condition.

The second was with the pre owned S10 at the dealer. I wanted to take it for a test ride and pushed it out of the showroom and it would not start. I again went to WOT and cranked for about 30 seconds and it started with the same cloud of unburned fuel. I can only assume with that one that a customer must have started the bike to hear it run briefly while it was on the showroom and then shut it down. It is not uncommon for a prospective buyer to ask a salesman to hear a bike run for a brief period. After that experience, I advised the salesman against allowing such on a S10.

Now, having said that, in January, 2011, we had one of Yamaha's Euro S10's that were making the rounds to dealers for display. While we were showing the features of that bike in the 5 days we had it on the floor, we started it many times for short periods and had no problems with it flooding. But, still, I have seen it twice on USA bikes, both times after brief running periods with cold engines.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:40 AM   #15565
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Say what you will about ignorance and operator error, but I've been riding and working on all things motored for quite some time now and I can say with a clear conscience that my hard starting Tenere problems have nothing to do with operator error. It's the bike. I don't know what it is about the bike, but it's the bike.

I keep all of my bikes maintained so any one of them is ready to go with no notice. Right now there are 8 in the garage. 1 project bike and 7 in running order. Only one of them has had problems starting. The Tenere.

I've had it happen 3 times in the last year.

The first time was the morning after I washed it. I had washed 3 bikes the previous evening. 2 of them started right up the next morning. Only the Tenere gave me troubles.

Since I had just rolled them all in the garage after their baths, I thought maybe the Tenere just needed to be started after I washed it to prevent this from happening again, so the next time I washed it, I fired it up and let it run for a couple minutes after I dried it off. I didn't let it get up to operating temp, I just fired it up and let it idle for a minute or two before turning it off and rolling it into the garage.

The next morning, the same thing. It didn't want to start.

From that point on, after I wash it, I start it and go do a quick 10 mile highway loop by my house. It always fires up the next morning when I do it this way. Obviously there is something getting wet that shouldn't be and needs to be dried out completely before she's put to bed.

The last time I had starting issues is when it sat for nearly a month. It didn't want to start. A couple other bikes had been sitting for just as long in the same garage and they all start just fine. It isn't operator error. It's the bike. If it was something I was doing, I wouldn't be able to start any of the bikes in my garage. 6 of them will fire right up every time. It is only the Tenere that won't.

If it hasn't happened to you, great, but don't try to say that it doesn't happen or those of us having issues are just making it up. We aren't. It does happen.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:17 PM   #15566
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I'll also relate my experiences where I've had three no-start episodes with on overt contributing factors (e.g., running briefly before, key cycling, washing, etc.). I simply pulled it out of the garage each time and attempted a normal cold start with throttle closed. In each case, when it didn't want to start after five seconds or so of cranking, I went WOT and it started fine after maybe 5-10 secs of further cranking.

I do think previous interrupted warmups and/or key cycling without starting are definitely contributors to the problem though.

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Old 01-23-2013, 12:35 PM   #15567
Dallara
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Cool2 Error...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krabill View Post
Say what you will about ignorance and operator error, but I've been riding and working on all things motored for quite some time now and I can say with a clear conscience that my hard starting Tenere problems have nothing to do with operator error. It's the bike. I don't know what it is about the bike, but it's the bike.

I keep all of my bikes maintained so any one of them is ready to go with no notice. Right now there are 8 in the garage. 1 project bike and 7 in running order. Only one of them has had problems starting. The Tenere.

I've had it happen 3 times in the last year.

The first time was the morning after I washed it. I had washed 3 bikes the previous evening. 2 of them started right up the next morning. Only the Tenere gave me troubles.

Since I had just rolled them all in the garage after their baths, I thought maybe the Tenere just needed to be started after I washed it to prevent this from happening again, so the next time I washed it, I fired it up and let it run for a couple minutes after I dried it off. I didn't let it get up to operating temp, I just fired it up and let it idle for a minute or two before turning it off and rolling it into the garage.

The next morning, the same thing. It didn't want to start.

From that point on, after I wash it, I start it and go do a quick 10 mile highway loop by my house. It always fires up the next morning when I do it this way. Obviously there is something getting wet that shouldn't be and needs to be dried out completely before she's put to bed.

The last time I had starting issues is when it sat for nearly a month. It didn't want to start. A couple other bikes had been sitting for just as long in the same garage and they all start just fine. It isn't operator error. It's the bike. If it was something I was doing, I wouldn't be able to start any of the bikes in my garage. 6 of them will fire right up every time. It is only the Tenere that won't.

If it hasn't happened to you, great, but don't try to say that it doesn't happen or those of us having issues are just making it up. We aren't. It does happen.


See what I mean about folks getting very defensive when "operator error", etc. are even mentioned...

Honestly, no offense is intended, toward anybody. But just because you have several other bikes in your garage and don't have any starting issues with any of them doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't necessarily doing something during starting that doesn't agree with it. Lots of folks had other cars in their garage besides Audi's or Toyota's, too, that they didn't have "unintended acceleration" issues with, yet those same folks stood hard on the gas pedal thinking they were pressing on the brake pedal...

It was proven time and time again, in a myriad of ways, that despite the owners' claims otherwise they put their foot on the wrong pedal, yet they would vehemently claim they did nothing wrong - and they never had any problem like that with their "other cars".

The point is that one should not just automatically dismiss the possibility that these "hard starting" instances as manufacturing defects of some kind. No two bikes brands are alike... They don't run alike, handle alike, sound alike, etc., etc., and you damn sure don't ride a Super Tenere like you would, say, a Ducati D16RR Desmosedici, or a Harley XR1200... I sure know I don't. You don't start 'em the same, either. At least I don't, and I own all three. They all also require quite a different starting routine than my vintage Norton Commando, or my CZ's, etc. I don't expect any one of them to, and I further expect I have to learn what each one *needs* to start, run, and operate optimally. That's my responsibility in the man/machine relationship.

To flippantly say that any problem like this one has to be the fault of "the bike" and ignore any other possibility is to suggest that oneself is somehow *perfect* and incapable of error. In other words, you're suggesting that other folks - the ones who built the bike or its components - are flagrantly in error, but that somehow you are incapable of it.

BTW, I have washed my bike dozens of times in the past 17 months/26-K+ miles of ownership and I've never had a starting problem. Due to some health issues mine had to sit from late September until December - over two months - without being started, ridden, or even having the battery charged... And yet it started right up. Then it had to sit again for the past month, but it started right up this past weekend and ran flawlessly for over 500 miles over two days an numerous starts. Moreover, much like GrahamD, I have gone out in the garage and tried dozens of combinations the past few days to try and duplicate the different things some folks say lead up to their "hard starting problem", and nothing... It just fires up like clockwork every single time.

I'm not saying there is not some sort of "problem", and I am trying to find a resolution to whatever the issue is even though I don't have it. Just check out the S-10 forum thread on the subject. But I'm not about to just summarily dismiss a very large part of the equation - the rider - that could be contributing to the problem. Sure, the bike *may* be the problem, but then again... Maybe not.

I've been messing with computers for decades, but I know when something goes wrong with one of them the first thing I think of is "What did I do?", or more importantly, "What did I do differently?" I don't just automatically assume that I'm somehow *perfect*, and incapable of error, and blame it on the machine or software.

Just my two centavos... YPPMMV.


Dallara





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Old 01-23-2013, 12:51 PM   #15568
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As my bike only has 7 miles on it...none put on by me...I haven't had an issue starting it....

However... reading all this I can't think of how starting a bike would cause the problem....I mean what is being done contrary to the manufactures instructions that would cause this condition??

Turn key on

disengage clutch or shift to neutral

....Kill switch is in the run position...

hit the starter...

crank for few seconds until engine fires....

if not wait a minute, repeat....


What is someone doing that is causing the engine to flood...

I'm not saying it is or it isn't opertor error, I'm saying the starting procedure is pretty simple and just about the same on every modern FI bike....so what are they doing wrong if it is operator error???
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:12 PM   #15569
Dallara
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Thumb See for yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
As my bike only has 7 miles on it...none put on by me...I haven't had an issue starting it....

However... reading all this I can't think of how starting a bike would cause the problem....I mean what is being done contrary to the manufactures instructions that would cause this condition??

Turn key on

disengage clutch or shift to neutral

....Kill switch is in the run position...

hit the starter...

crank for few seconds until engine fires....

if not wait a minute, repeat....


What is someone doing that is causing the engine to flood...

I'm not saying it is or it isn't opertor error, I'm saying the starting procedure is pretty simple and just about the same on every modern FI bike....so what are they doing wrong if it is operator error???


I won't go into the entire issue here as there is a *HUGE* thread over on the Yamaha Super Tenere forum about it, with more info than perhaps you want to know on how it could very well be caused by "operator error". I'd post the link for you but it's a big no-no to post links to other web forums on ADVrider, and I don't wanna' get bounced.

Just head on over there and look for "Have you had the hard start problem" or "Hard starting" in a couple of thread titles and you have plenty of reading, and examples, to piqued your interest.

Suffice to say there seems some conditions and/or operator actions that can cause the problem...

- Some have had issues after they have washed the bike, but yet they don't have any riding, or starting up, in the rain.
- Some have said they have the problem after multiple key cycles - i.e. turning the ignition on and then off again, repeatedly - without actually starting the bike.
- Others say that if they start the bike but only let it run for a few seconds, then try and start it again, that they encounter a problem starting back up.
- Still others say they have a problem if the bike has been sitting for more than a couple of weeks without being ridden.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about all these reports of "hard starting" apparently not one has happened to anyone out on the road, say, on a trip, etc. Oddly enough, it seems the issue only happens at home (or wherever the bike is stored).

Check out the threads over on the other forum and draw your own conclusions.

Dallara




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Old 01-23-2013, 01:23 PM   #15570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
I do think previous interrupted warmups and/or key cycling without starting are definitely contributors to the problem though.
I think so too, the ecu probably injects more fuel when starting a cold engine like the choke in the old days. If you do this several times and add condensation of fuel in the intake to it which also happens on a cold engine you can flood even an EFI bike.

Through repeated on/off cycling of the ignition during installing new indicator lights i had the problem also on another bike.

Oh, and others had more success with not starting their bike:
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