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Old 01-22-2013, 08:24 PM   #241
Jedl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It is turning the front wheel in the direction wanted to go when going under say 10 mph (might be lower than that) versus the turning in the opposite direction associated with higher speeds.
Not true !

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It all depends on speed.
Not true !

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
When trials riding at 3-5 mph it was definitely turning the front wheel in the direction of the intended turn. I want to turn right I turn right, left to go left. But there is a transition point.
There is no transition point relative to steering while in a turn. Anytime and every time a single-track vehicle is turning, the front wheel is turned into the turn. This is a "true fact" in any frame of reference, at any speed, for any single-track vehicle (with normal, non-reversed steering).

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
That effect goes away around maybe 10-15 mph, then the whole left to go right/right to go left starts.
At no time is the front wheel of any single track vehicle turned right relative to the turn while going left or turned left relative to the turn while going right. You are confusing steering during a turn with countersteering before a turn. Countersteering does not turn the bike and is not about turning per se. Countersteering is about rolling the bike into a lean (moving the CoG to the inside of the desired turn) so the rider can turn without the bike and riding being thrown to the outside of the turn.

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Lots and lots of physics involved in it all.
Don't walk into a physics discussion with a pocket-protector and consider yourself properly qualified. There are people who actually study and learn about physics aggressively. These people are called "scientists". Don't make the mistake of thinking that scientists don't ride motorcycles or that knowing how to ride a motorcycle makes someone a scientist. And certainly don't make the mistake of thinking that just because someone understands the physics involved, that they have do do the calculations in order to negotiate a corner on a motorcycle. Understanding something is not mutually exclusive to developing reflexive skills.

Your assessment of the physics involved with motorcycle dynamics is just plain wrong. And since you don't want to confuse things with science, you stand no chance of ever truly understanding what's going on. So please, stick to what you know and leave the technical discussions to those with the background and experience to speak accurately on the subject.

cheers,
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:27 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
If you want to see what speed counter steering begins to work at try this.

Go get on your bike, and stand it up. Put the kickstand up. Now put your feet on the pegs and balance.

Why is it so hard to balance? Because counter steering doesn't work when you are stopped and shifting your weight is not a very effective way to balance.

If the bike is rolling at all and you find it easier to balance than when it was stopped, that's because countersteering works as soon as the bike begins moving.
This !!
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:30 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It all depends on speed. When trials riding at 3-5 mph it was definitely turning the front wheel in the direction of the intended turn. I want to turn right I turn right, left to go left. But there is a transition point...

That effect goes away around maybe 10-15 mph, then the whole left to go right/right to go left starts.

So technically you do TURN in the direction you want to go at extremely low speeds,
No. NO! NO!!

It does not matter if you are going 1mph or 100mph. It does not matter if you are on a Trials bike, Sport bike, Standard or Cruiser... If you are moving and you want to turn left you will ALWAYS have some type of counter steer to the right. ALWAYS... No exception. If not you would simply fall over to the right.

It may be brief. It may be brought about without even having a hand on the bars but it does take place 100% of the time on a moving motorcycle! It has to take place or the bike would not lean into the turn and the front wheel could not track to the outside.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:32 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Mr_Gone View Post
Isn't that also the airspeed of an unladen swallow?
An African Shallow maybe... But not a European Swallow.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:54 PM   #245
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This is why i keep it on the rear wheel, much simpler and avoids all this brain overload.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:33 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
No. NO! NO!!

It does not matter if you are going 1mph or 100mph. It does not matter if you are on a Trials bike, Sport bike, Standard or Cruiser... If you are moving and you want to turn left you will ALWAYS have some type of counter steer to the right. ALWAYS... No exception. If not you would simply fall over to the right.

It may be brief. It may be brought about without even having a hand on the bars but it does take place 100% of the time on a moving motorcycle! It has to take place or the bike would not lean into the turn and the front wheel could not track to the outside.
It sure is a good thing my body knows what to do to turn my bike at slow speeds even if my brain doesn't! Thanks!
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:14 AM   #247
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Meh. I think its very possible to shift your weight to one side and it have an effect allowing you to turn the wheel in that direction without going the other way first. It isn't like your contact patches are single points. It is a patch that does provide some small amount of resistance, the bike will not lean the opposite direction with an equal amount of mass distribution. Maybe it would if you had 60psi in your tires, but I do not in mine.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:36 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Jedl View Post
Don't walk into a physics discussion with a pocket-protector and consider yourself properly qualified. There are people who actually study and learn about physics aggressively. These people are called "scientists". Don't make the mistake of thinking that scientists don't ride motorcycles or that knowing how to ride a motorcycle makes someone a scientist. And certainly don't make the mistake of thinking that just because someone understands the physics involved, that they have do do the calculations in order to negotiate a corner on a motorcycle. Understanding something is not mutually exclusive to developing reflexive skills.

Your assessment of the physics involved with motorcycle dynamics is just plain wrong. And since you don't want to confuse things with science, you stand no chance of ever truly understanding what's going on. So please, stick to what you know and leave the technical discussions to those with the background and experience to speak accurately on the subject.

cheers,
Brilliant! (No sarcasm, btw). Pleasantly and comprehensively stated. Well done sir/madam!

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Meh. I think its very possible to shift your weight to one side and it have an effect allowing you to turn the wheel in that direction without going the other way first. It isn't like your contact patches are single points. It is a patch that does provide some small amount of resistance, the bike will not lean the opposite direction with an equal amount of mass distribution. Maybe it would if you had 60psi in your tires, but I do not in mine.
...and then you get this.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:12 AM   #249
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I'm not sure if this site was ever linked www.dinamoto.it . This is the "Motorcycle Dynamics Research Group" at the University of Padova in Italy. Seems like they ride bikes as well, not just lab rats.
Steering, counter-steering, forces etc well documented and explained.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:40 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Meh. I think its very possible to shift your weight to one side and it have an effect allowing you to turn the wheel in that direction without going the other way first.
Think again.


When you "Shift your weight to one side" You initiate a counter steer which THEN allows you to "turn the wheel in that direction"
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:48 AM   #251
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You know how I know countersteering exists?

I prove it every time I switch between my direct-steering Spyder and my counter-steering CBR. Otherwise, I'd kill myself counter-steering the Spyder, or direct-steering the Honda.

And you're damn right I have to CONSCIOUSLY think about counter-steering (AND direct-steering) for at least a few rides when I switch. I'll even say it out loud in my helmet the first few times I negotiate turns around the neighborhood just to get into the proper mental place.

In fact, I've been known to even say it out loud when I've been in an emergency situation (my shorthand is simple: on two wheels, I think/yell "PUSH!" and on three wheels I think/yell "TURN!"... wakes me up in an emergency situation and focuses my rapid evasion skills).

Better dorky than dead.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:32 AM   #252
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DAKEZ last post was spot on.

Countersteering is why, when the 'training wheels' were removed from your bike, you crashed a lot. Your brain made the unconscious decision to not 'steer' the bike anymore to stop the pain.
It still needs to be consciously practiced or it WON'T be there in high stress situations.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:43 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Think again.


When you "Shift your weight to one side" You initiate a counter steer which THEN allows you to "turn the wheel in that direction"
If you are going 1mph, And you stick your arm out to the right. The tire, being flat on the bottom, will resist the bike leaning in the opposite direction. Assuming you were perfectly balanced before you stuck your arm out to the right, you now have some room to turn the front wheel to the right, maybe only one degree, without having the bike tip to the left.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:01 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by daveinva View Post
You know how I know countersteering exists?

I prove it every time I switch between my direct-steering Spyder and my counter-steering CBR. Otherwise, I'd kill myself counter-steering the Spyder, or direct-steering the Honda.

And you're damn right I have to CONSCIOUSLY think about counter-steering (AND direct-steering) for at least a few rides when I switch. I'll even say it out loud in my helmet the first few times I negotiate turns around the neighborhood just to get into the proper mental place.

In fact, I've been known to even say it out loud when I've been in an emergency situation (my shorthand is simple: on two wheels, I think/yell "PUSH!" and on three wheels I think/yell "TURN!"... wakes me up in an emergency situation and focuses my rapid evasion skills).

Better dorky than dead.
That sounds dangerous as hell to me.... I think I'll never ride an atv again
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #255
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The counter-steer transition formula.

A simple google search brought me to this formula:

transition speed = sqrt((m/d)^2*cos(θ)*π)
where m = mass of bike with rider
d = front wheel diameter
θ = rake angle

This gives a good estimate of the transition speed.

I put in the numbers for a weestrom and got 23.
With futher curiosity I put in these bikes:
ex250 = 26
gsxr1000 = 12
harly sportster = 58
streched out chopper = 98

As you can see from the examples. The bikes with the lower transition speeds are harder to ride while the higher numbers are easier to ride as counter steering is not required until higher speeds.

From this you can see why harleys are so popular as it doesn't require the user to know anything about counter steering at all, as when they go that fast, they are in a straight line. When they turn, they slow down to below the counter-steering threshold then they just turn normally.

disclaimer: anyone using information provided does so at their own risk!
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