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Old 01-23-2013, 11:58 AM   #256
Griffin44
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Originally Posted by i_4ce View Post
...
As you can see from the examples. The bikes with the lower transition speeds are hard to ride while the higher numbers are easier to ride as counter steering is not required until higher speeds.

From this you can see why harleys are so popular as it doesn't require the user to know anything about counter steering at all, as when they go that fast, they are in a straight line. When they turn, they slow down to below the counter-steering threshold then they just turn normally.
Wait, what??!! A stretched chopper is easier to ride than a GSXR in your view? Really? I wouldn't ride a stretched chopper down the block.

And how the hell does that data inform you that you don't need to counter steer a chopper unless you're going fast? I'm either dumber than my mom said or something is wrong here. Or both.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:29 PM   #257
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I don't think he's serious lol
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I don't think he's serious lol
Well, that does explain it. Thanks. Although it may not be the silliest thing written in this thread. And, as I said...

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I'm either dumber than my mom said or something is wrong here. Or both.
Seems the answer is "both".
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:37 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by i_4ce View Post

This gives a good estimate of the transition speed.

I put in the numbers for a weestrom and got 23.
With futher curiosity I put in these bikes:
ex250 = 26
gsxr1000 = 12
harly sportster = 58
streched out chopper = 98

As you can see from the examples. The bikes with the lower transition speeds are harder to ride while the higher numbers are easier to ride as counter steering is not required until higher speeds.!

The "Transition speed" is MOVING OR NOT MOVING.

To turn a moving motorcycle you counter steer evey time on EVERY BIKE.

1 mph? Yup!

5 mph? Yup!

15 mph? Yup!

60 mph? Yup!

It does not matter what bike. It does not matter what speed. There is no mythical transition speed. If you are moving and you turn. YOU COUNTER-STEERED! 100% of the time.

The end.

Nice troll.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:47 PM   #260
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Nice troll.
There's trolling... and there's incomprehension
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:04 PM   #261
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I think part of the problem with non-believers is that it doesn't feel like your counter steering on some bikes... like a big cruiser going 5 mph.

A few months ago I switched from a Ver-sys (having other standards/dual-sports before that) to a Suzuki C50 (an 800cc "old style" looking cruiser - big tires, fenders, etc.)

When going slow the front wheel heavily turns the direction you're going, if you didn't know better you would think it's not counter-steering.

It's just a millisecond twitch that leans the bike over and then the wheel turns. I can see how some people don't think it's happening even though it is. I also think having big arguments about it is pretty funny.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:08 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by the Pheasant View Post
There's trolling... and there's incomprehension
I agree. And I add: Some people are trolling even when their statements are correct. Some are not trolling even when they are wrong. It's all in the wrist, I mean the attitude.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #263
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maybe somebody has already posted this...

But it is a nice visual explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:30 PM   #264
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:44 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Meh. I think its very possible to shift your weight to one side and it have an effect allowing you to turn the wheel in that direction without going the other way first. It isn't like your contact patches are single points. It is a patch that does provide some small amount of resistance, the bike will not lean the opposite direction with an equal amount of mass distribution. Maybe it would if you had 60psi in your tires, but I do not in mine.
I agree, it depends heavily on the tires used, weight of the bike, and where the pivot point is between you and the bike. On my dirtbike with low air pressure I have come to a complete stop and stood there for a solid minute without having to try and balance at all. However if you are off by a tiny fraction than you fall to the ground unless another force comes into play. The effect of having a stable base to push off of with a round tire that's low on air pressure would be so incredibly small its not really worth noting.

From a physics stand point (which applies to everyone) this is what would happen if there was some sort of "transition" between direct steering at low speeds to counter-steering at high speeds. At some point in speed when you are directly in the middle of that transition point than steering the front tire in any direction or any amount would literally have zero effect on the motorcycle. You wont lean or turn in any direction, it would have no effect. Does that actually happen? No! For there to be a transition point you MUST have a transition!!!!! To add to this issue while your approaching that "transition" point the steering would get less and less sensitive until nothing happened at all. (it could never be a single magical speed at 0.0000001 mph). As you accelerated past that transition point it would gradually get more sensitive until you got to full "counter steer."

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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Man, too many words and concepts and all. You can demonstrate counter-steering by simply balancing a broom from its handle, with the handle on the palm of your hand. Move the handle (your palm) right to lean the broom left and you will go left...
It is to many words and concepts . Unfortunately there are a lot of different forces and factors that make counter steering work. If the broom example helps anyone understand why it works and gets them in the right frame of mind than stick with it! But that's not how counter steering physically works. With the broom you move your hand around under it to get the broom's CG centered back on your hand. For that to work on a motorcycle you would need to move the entire front tire left or right out from under the motorcycle the same way you move your hand under the broom (there is actually an RC bike that steers this way). On a motorcycle the front tire simply turns, it doesn't move relative to the frame other than the tiny amount caused by rake angles.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:03 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR
Man, too many words and concepts and all. You can demonstrate counter-steering by simply balancing a broom from its handle, with the handle on the palm of your hand. Move the handle (your palm) right to lean the broom left and you will go left...
It is to many words and concepts . Unfortunately there are a lot of different forces and factors that make counter steering work. If the broom example helps anyone understand why it works and gets them in the right frame of mind than stick with it! But that's not how counter steering physically works. With the broom you move your hand around under it to get the broom's CG centered back on your hand. For that to work on a motorcycle you would need to move the entire front tire left or right out from under the motorcycle the same way you move your hand under the broom (there is actually an RC bike that steers this way). On a motorcycle the front tire simply turns, it doesn't move relative to the frame other than the tiny amount caused by rake angles.
Actually Lion BR's example is a very good approximation to how countersteering affects the lean angle of a bike. Rewrite his words exchanging "contact patch" for palm and "bike" for broom and he's dead on.

Countersteering is nothing more than steering off the line that the bike is currently balanced on in an effort to move the CoG away from the current location in order to change the lean angle and affect a turn. We only countersteer (outside the turn) momentarily to initiate a turn (by moving the contact patch out allowing gravity to induce the lean), then the wheel turns towards the turn and is steering normally (during steady-state turning). When we're done turning, we again countersteer (more deeply into the turn driving the contact patches towards the CoG) to right the bike and end the turn.

Countersteering is not about keeping the front wheel turned opposite the turn during the turn. That would be foolish and would cause the bike to just lay over on it's side. Countersteering is only about changing the lean / roll angle of the bike. Once the bike is rolled into a lean, normal steering is what keeps us in balance through the turn.

The effect of countersteering is more pronounced at speed because even the slightest turn of the handlebars will see the front wheel (and it's contact patch) move quickly off to the side. It's the movement of the contact patch (like Lion BR's hand) that moves outside of the CoG (the broom) that allows the bike to lean and later turn.

Conversely, at slower speeds we have to make larger (counter) steering corrections in order to move the CoG quickly enough. That's why slow races are so difficult.

I know, I know . . too many words. And I didn't mean to science it all up like that . . . .

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Old 01-23-2013, 03:08 PM   #267
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Shaddix,

When we start from a steady-state balanced & non-turning condition (see disclaimer), and we shift our weight to one side, the bike naturally has to lean in the opposite direction. The bike's leaning is required to balance the force required to shift your weight.

When a bike is leaned, however slightly, the combined effects of steering angle, rake, trail and tire profile - cause the front forks to steer into the bike's direction of lean (see note). In motion, this then causes the front tire to out-track in the direction of bike lean, moving the bike further out of balance relative to the rider and the CoG further into the direction of the body lean.

At which point the bike will roll past vertical into a lean in the direction of the body lean & combined CoG. Then the bike will turn. So while it seams that all you are doing is shifting your weight, in actuality the bike naturally counter-steers in response to the weight shift.

Discussions about countersteering are about using this natural effect of bike dynamics to consciously control the bike with greater precision and greater urgency on command as needed. Those people that have learned & mastered the technique enhance their ability to control their bike, especially in critical conditions. It's about learning as much as we can about how bikes work so we can ride more safely in a range of conditions.


Disclaimer: A motorcycle in motion is never in a steady-state of balance. In motion all single-track vehicles lean and weave right and left continuously. The effect is most pronounced at slow speeds but even at speed it happens continuously. There's no way to stop it since we are balancing over two inline contact patches.

Note: You can see this effect by holding a bicycle from the top bar while vertical w/ neutral steering angle. Now lean the bike slightly in one direction or the other. Without any input at the handlebar, the front wheel will turn into the direction of lean. Lean the bike in the other direction and the front wheel will turn towards the new lean angle.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:18 PM   #268
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Shaddix,

When we start from a steady-state balanced & non-turning condition (see disclaimer), and we shift our weight to one side, the bike naturally has to lean in the opposite direction. The bike's leaning is required to balance the force required to shift your weight.

When a bike is leaned, however slightly, the combined effects of steering angle, rake, trail and tire profile - cause the front forks to steer into the bike's direction of lean (see note). In motion, this then causes the front tire to out-track in the direction of bike lean, moving the bike further out of balance relative to the rider and the CoG further into the direction of the body lean.

At which point the bike will roll past vertical into a lean in the direction of the body lean & combined CoG. Then the bike will turn. So while it seams that all you are doing is shifting your weight, in actuality the bike naturally counter-steers in response to the weight shift.

Discussions about countersteering are about using this natural effect of bike dynamics to consciously control the bike with greater precision and greater urgency on command as needed. Those people that have learned & mastered the technique enhance their ability to control their bike, especially in critical conditions. It's about learning as much as we can about how bikes work so we can ride more safely in a range of conditions.


Disclaimer: A motorcycle in motion is never in a steady-state of balance. In motion all single-track vehicles lean and weave right and left continuously. The effect is most pronounced at slow speeds but even at speed it happens continuously. There's no way to stop it since we are balancing over two inline contact patches.

Note: You can see this effect by holding a bicycle from the top bar while vertical w/ neutral steering angle. Now lean the bike slightly in one direction or the other. Without any input at the handlebar, the front wheel will turn into the direction of lean. Lean the bike in the other direction and the front wheel will turn towards the new lean angle.
I don't think the bike leans equally in the other direction, because we aren't balancing the bike on a pin in space. Since the contact patch is not a single point, it provides some resistance to rolling to the left or right, giving you a base upon which to move some mass away from the current CoG.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:46 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I don't think the bike leans equally in the other direction, because we aren't balancing the bike on a pin in space. Since the contact patch is not a single point, it provides some resistance to rolling to the left or right, giving you a base upon which to move some mass away from the current CoG.
You are, of course, free to to believe what ever you want. My contention is that you are not applying those forces (shifting your wight) at the contact patch but rather at some point above them (your CoG) - so you are inducing a torque to the bike. Even if some of that torque is momentarily absorbed by tire flexion, eventually those forces have to equalize. There are after all laws about such things. ;-)

At any rate all of this is opinion and not science. Neither of us can prove our points without the science. So I'm sure we can agree to disagree.

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Old 01-23-2013, 07:17 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
It is to many words and concepts . Unfortunately there are a lot of different forces and factors that make counter steering work. If the broom example helps anyone understand why it works and gets them in the right frame of mind than stick with it! But that's not how counter steering physically works. With the broom you move your hand around under it to get the broom's CG centered back on your hand. For that to work on a motorcycle you would need to move the entire front tire left or right out from under the motorcycle the same way you move your hand under the broom (there is actually an RC bike that steers this way). On a motorcycle the front tire simply turns, it doesn't move relative to the frame other than the tiny amount caused by rake angles.
That is EXACTLY why we countersteer, because we are moving and the front tire does not slide sideways. But if we could make the front tire slide sideways as we are moving, lets say we push a button and the tire slide to the left from under us, we would then lean right, and hence turn right, and guess what, in that case we would not need to counter steer! Like the broom example. But since the tire does not move that way, it rolls, then we need to countersteer to move it to the side, in our example to the left, creating the appropriate "unbalance" that will generate the lean to the right and we will turn to the right. It is a very simple concept. Like the broom example.
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