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Old 01-23-2013, 12:43 PM   #331
GSF1200S
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I love it when someone who knows what they're doing with something goes all fuckin apeshit talking about it

As an electrician, great thread _cy_
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #332
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A little off topic and not sure if this has been covered else where. Can any of these new batteries be taken on a plane in your carry on bag ?
"Passengers can also bring up to two larger lithium ion batteries that each contain between 8 and 25 grams of equivalent lithium content per battery in their carry-on luggage. This size covers larger extended-life laptop batteries." I got this quote off of "Air safe.com" No idea what kind of authority they are.
I keep a bike in storage for vacations in the southern US, fly down from Canada so it's an international flight. Last time had to jump start the bike and am figuring on replacing the battery any how. Thinking of keeping battery with me to be sure it is fully charged to start with. I never know how long it will be stored or what temperatures. It's a litre bike, what battery is recommended if one can take a certain size on a plane?
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:55 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.C.Biker View Post
A little off topic and not sure if this has been covered else where. Can any of these new batteries be taken on a plane in your carry on bag ?
"Passengers can also bring up to two larger lithium ion batteries that each contain between 8 and 25 grams of equivalent lithium content per battery in their carry-on luggage. This size covers larger extended-life laptop batteries." I got this quote off of "Air safe.com" No idea what kind of authority they are.
I keep a bike in storage for vacations in the southern US, fly down from Canada so it's an international flight. Last time had to jump start the bike and am figuring on replacing the battery any how. Thinking of keeping battery with me to be sure it is fully charged to start with. I never know how long it will be stored or what temperatures. It's a litre bike, what battery is recommended if one can take a certain size on a plane?
If the storage facility had an outlet, maybe you could hook up a maintenance charger for regular battery. If you disconnected the Li battery, you might not need any other care since very little loss is experienced.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:56 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
I love it when someone who knows what they're doing with something goes all fuckin apeshit talking about it

As an electrician, great thread _cy_
thanks GSF1200S ... it's hard talking about technical battery stuff without putting most folks to sleep...

kinda like trying to explain three phase power delta vs wye

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:50 PM   #335
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Thanks for the fast reply. Need a new plan.....
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #336
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if shipping your Bike via airfreight, it's no longer legal to leave LiFePO4 battery in cargo hold.
based on DOT formula, it's legal to carry on largest size LiFePO4 available from Earth-X and Shoria

What is the Total Equivalent Lithium Content of My Battery?
figuring using DOT formula below

mAh/1000 x V = wh

Earth-X ETX24 = 6.3 actual amp hour
6.3 (actual AH) x 13.2 (nominal volt LiFePO4) = 83.16 watt hour

problems: TSA will look at ETX24 label as 24AH, instead of actual 6.3 AH measured
Yes most LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries will pass, if TSA uses actual instead of inflated lead acid equivalent AH measurements.

----------------------------
http://safetravel.dot.gov/definitions.html

Equivalent Lithium Content (ELC). ELC is a measure by which lithium ion batteries are classified.
  • 8 grams of equivalent lithium content are equal to about 100 watt-hours.
  • 25 grams of equivalent lithium content are equal to about 300 watt-hours.
You can arrive at the number of watt-hours your battery provides if you know how many milliamp hours and volts your battery provides:

mAh/1000 x V = wh

Most lithium ion batteries marketed to consumers are below 100 watt-hours (8 grams ELC). If you are unsure of the watt-hour rating of your lithium ion battery, contact the manufacturer.

Lithium Batteries. When you see this term alone on SafeTravel pages, it refers to both lithium ion batteries and lithium metal batteries. Lithium polymer batteries are a typeof lithium ion battery, and are included in this term.
Lithium Ion Batteries. These are rechargeable lithium batteries, similar to those found in cameras, cell phones, laptop computers, and radio-controlled toys. Lithium polymer batteries are those types of lithium ion batteries. Larger Lithium Ion Batteries contain between 8 and 25 grams Equivalent Lithium Content (ELC). Some very large after-market laptop computer batteries, and some batteries used for professional audio-visual application, fall within this definition.
Smaller Lithium Ion Batteries contain up to 8 grams Equivalent Lithium Content. Cell phone batteries and most laptop computer batteries fall below the 8 gram threshold.
Lithium Ion Batteries with more than 25 grams ELC are forbidden in air travel.

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Old 01-27-2013, 04:09 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Twilight Error View Post
I used to build LiIon batteries for the aerospace market. I would not install any one of the current crop of commercial LiIon batteries into my bike. The charging systems we've got are designed around Lead-Acid, which are vastly more tolerant of abuse than any LiIon chemistry available. Even the relatively forgiving Iron Phosphate variants don't match up well with our charging systems. I would wait until batteries with dedicated charge control electronics positioned between the charging system and the cells are on the market.
your comments may be true for the lithium cobalt based li-ion batteries. but you are way off on LiFePO4 not matching up with 12v motorcycle systems.

you know this but LOTS of other folks are getting confused with li-ion label which includes lithium cobalt used in Boeing 787 and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO44) used in motorcycles. Lithium cobalt batteries are inherently unsafe ... overcharge by 1/2 volt over 4.2v full charge ... battery could go into thermal runaway (explosion) vs LiFePO4 has to subjected to wild abuse before it will finally catch on fire. LiFePO4 batteries are inherently stable and are the safest of all li-ion batteries.

think in terms of cell multiples... lithium cobalt based batteries operates at about 3.7v nominal, which mean that cell operates between 3.5v-4.2v fully charged. lithium cobalt based cells simply don't match 12v systems. compared to LiFePO4's 3.3v nominal which matches up nicely with 12v systems. LiFePO4 are fully charged at 14.6v with 20% remaining at 12.8v. which you don't want to drop below.

12v charging system typically operate 13.8-14.2v which means a std 12v charging system cannot overcharge a LiFePO4 battery. cells however can get unbalanced without an internal BMS.

LifePO4 batteries are starting to come with an internal BMS. Earth-X has an internal BMS that self balances cells. Shorai may not claim it but their behavior indicates presences of an internal BMS on some Shorai batteries.

LiFePO4 has an extremely low self discharge. after you charge a LiFePO4 battery to 14.6v ... observe it's discharge ... after sitting overnight battery will drop to 14.1v range, then hold that charge level for months.

if LiFePo4 battery has an internal BMS, voltage will drop to 13.85v range after sitting overnight. there's an internal shunt that bleeds off excess voltage, allowing cells not fully charged to reach full charge. some LiFePO4 battery has external ports allowing use of an intelligent charger that balances each cell.

note there's very little power 14.6v to 13.85v ... 90% of available power occurs 13.3v to 12.8v range ... extremely flat discharge curve

here's Powerlab 8 charging Shoria with balancing leads. Powerlab 8 is currently world's most advanced li-ion charger that you can actually buy.





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Old 02-07-2013, 02:31 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Gumbeaux View Post
FWIW I guess Shorai now specifies the 21A battery for the F800GS, according to Andrew at Acme Rider Supply (my trusted accessories guy here in the Atlanta area). Picked mine up today. Will let you know how it goes...
please do let us know how it goes... based on extensive testing with Shorai LFX 21 and Earth-X ETX24 ... both tested out at about 6 amp hour actual capacities.

using Joel's excellent test methodology of 200amps sustain load for 30sec, 10sec, 20sec = one test cycle. another reason for using Joel's testing methodology is to dovetail his results with mine. note all Joel's testing measurements were done with know to be accurate Fluke meters. note my test measurements are also done with known to be accurate Fluke meters when possible. Powerlab 8, which is world most advanced Li-ion workstation perform AH measurements. Joel has nicer Fluke meters than me, I've got more battery specific tools than Joel. both our data sets mates together nicely.

Earth-X ETX24 outperformed Shorai LFX 21 for 200amp loads by a substantial margin. details in LiFePO4 testing thread... link in sig

my recommendation is to ago with AGM, unless saving weight if more important and saving $$. if you are planning on using your 800GS for actual Adventure duties far away from support.

for Adventure duties the only two LiFePO4 batteries I can recommend are Shorai LFX 36 and Earth-X ETX36 ... both have enough Amp Hour reserves to pass Joel's grueling 200amp continuous crank tests.

for adventure duties both Shorai LFX 21 and Earth-X ETX24 failed from too small amp hour reserves. with Earth-X ETX 24 putting in an outstanding 200amp cranking performance!

Shorai LFX 36 has passed with flying colors in R80G/S with one year of service, under hard cranking conditions. Earth-X ETX 36 is just getting started in R80G/S and doing an outstanding job!
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:34 AM   #339
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CY...

Just found this thread, read the beginning, and end to date, so forgive me if i missed my question...

Been looking at Shorai batteries, $360 of our money, looking to fit a new battery into my BMW R1100S road bike,
Now i also found another brand, ULTRABATT, Have you seen, or know anything about them...

http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index....oducts_id=1197

Cheers Jeremy.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:37 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Wanderer2012 View Post
CY...

Just found this thread, read the beginning, and end to date, so forgive me if i missed my question...

Been looking at Shorai batteries, $360 of our money, looking to fit a new battery into my BMW R1100S road bike,
Now i also found another brand, ULTRABATT, Have you seen, or know anything about them...

http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index....oducts_id=1197

Cheers Jeremy.
sorry cannot comment on Ultrabatt batteries ... there can be substantial differences in performance from different companies and models. besides quality of LiFePO4 cells used, internal construction plays a huge part in cranking performance. batteries with internal BMS are better at staying balanced. some batteries offer external charge ports allowing for balancing charge maintenance.

std recommendation is go with a quality AGM battery, unless saving weight is more important than saving $$$.

compared to some carbon fiber parts, LiFePO4 batteries are one of the most cost effective way to drop lbs.

of importance is how bike is to be used ... most mfg will spec batteries sizes for warm weather conditions. there's a substantial difference between cold weather cranking requirements and warm.

another factor is if bike will always be ridden from a garage with a battery charger or will bike be used for adventure duties?

LiFePO4 mfg are notorious for posting misleading amp hour capacities. actual amp hour for most LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries are tiny. most being 4 to 6 amp hours. not much reserve power with a 4.6 AH battery.

some folks don't need a large amp hour battery ... some do .. again depending on how bike is to be used and cranking performance needed.

take a close look at Earth-X ETX 24 ... outstanding cranking performance, but actual amp hour (actual spec in earlier test data) is too low for an adventure bike that's gone for extended periods with little to no support.

for adventure duties only two batteries I can recommend are Shorai LFX 36 and Earth-X ETX36 on right.

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Old 02-09-2013, 03:16 AM   #341
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cy-

To clarify to the real amp hours could you put up an overvievv vvith the different batteries.

ETX18, ETX21, ETX24....ETX36 etc

Shorai 18, 21, 24,....

And i donīt care vvhat any vendors claims. Just your honest results based on your test.

As i read it ETX36 should be 36ah but in real life its 10.79ah?

Regards
Mikael
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:51 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by LocuL View Post
cy-

To clarify to the real amp hours could you put up an overvievv vvith the different batteries.

ETX18, ETX21, ETX24....ETX36 etc

Shorai 18, 21, 24,....

And i donīt care vvhat any vendors claims. Just your honest results based on your test.

As i read it ETX36 should be 36ah but in real life its 10.79ah?

Regards
Mikael
there's plenty of detailed data concerning actual amp hours measured posted a few pages back. don't worry it won't put you to sleep too bad digging

something simple sounding like amp hour capacity can become complex quickly. for example at what temps and discharge rates did mfg do measurements at?

discharge and charge rates are expressed in terms of 1C or .1C or .5C , where C = actual AH

lithium (li-ion) batteries in general has very low internal resistance characteristics. discharge rate effects total efficiency achieved. which will be different yet depending on temps. at -10C LifePO4 AH capacity drops by aprox 50%

for example discharge measurement done at .1C will yield slightly higher AH measurement vs .5C vs 1C vs 28C .. etc.
this is why how bike will be used makes a huge difference.

Joel W did an excellent series of tests videos with Shorai LFX 18 that drove in this home.

below LFX 18 was subjected to brutal stress test of leaving 2x 55 watt headlights (10.9amp drain) on for five minutes, then cranked bike over to start. LFX 18 survived brutal 10.9amp drain for 25 minutes, then starting bike 6x times at 5 minute intervals. LFX 18 finally failed at 28 minutes subjected to 10.9 amp drain.

an amazing performance from LFX18 under light load conditions... yet LFX 18 failed 10 seconds into a 200amp stress test in second video below



Joel also did a series of 200 amp continuous discharge tests for 30 seconds, 10 sec, 20sec = one cycle. LFX 18 didn't even make it pass one cycle of 200amp discharge testing. yet LFX 18 managed to start a modern motorcycle multiple times with headlight left on for extended periods.

this test illustrates how a properly size AGM battery performs next to a LiFePO4 battery sized way too small.


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Old 02-10-2013, 10:36 PM   #343
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Battery Charger Question

Hi,
I am reading your LiFePo4 thread presently. Good stuff here. I've seen you on Candlepower forums as well.

I have a Battery Charger question.

I have a PC925 in my Beemer.

I just put an Odyssey 31m-pc2150 in my Landcruiser. Big MoFo!

I'm looking for a good 40-50 Amp charger that will do AGM batteries well. It is confusing and I can't seem to find a good site addressing car chargers well. I was thinking of building a PL-8 system like you have in the past. I had actually purchased 2 HP Server power supplies to put in Parallel for this but now am just looking for a decent, not too expensive charger to do these AGM's in my bike and cars.

Do you have any ideas on a decent charger? I was looking at a Schumacher PSC-12500A DSR but don't know if I should be looking elsewhere. The Ultima Chargers by Odyssey are expensive and look like a Schumacher to me.

Thanx!
Les
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:18 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Les_Garten View Post
Hi,
I am reading your LiFePo4 thread presently. Good stuff here. I've seen you on Candlepower forums as well.

I have a Battery Charger question.

I have a PC925 in my Beemer.

I just put an Odyssey 31m-pc2150 in my Landcruiser. Big MoFo!

I'm looking for a good 40-50 Amp charger that will do AGM batteries well. It is confusing and I can't seem to find a good site addressing car chargers well. I was thinking of building a PL-8 system like you have in the past. I had actually purchased 2 HP Server power supplies to put in Parallel for this but now am just looking for a decent, not too expensive charger to do these AGM's in my bike and cars.

Do you have any ideas on a decent charger? I was looking at a Schumacher PSC-12500A DSR but don't know if I should be looking elsewhere. The Ultima Chargers by Odyssey are expensive and look like a Schumacher to me.

Thanx!
Les
what an excellent question!

AGM batteries are still the preferred choice for most adventure motorcycles. with the exception of Shorai LFX 36 and Earth-X ETX36 when saving weight is more important than saving $$$.

it's important not to overcharge ... AGM cells like to be charged at 2.40V to 2.45V/cell = 14.4v to 14.7v for max capacity with less sulfation. 2.30V to 2.35V/cell = 13.8v to 14.1v for max service life

AGM batteries that's gone thru a severe discharge. a reconditioning charge cycle may be in order. but that takes a charger with a conditioning cycle and/or a constant voltage charger that delivers 15.5v

AGM 12v batteries charges very close to flooded PB batteries. main difference you can hurt AGM by overcharging easier vs flooded PB.

there's three stages charging an AGM battery..

1. bulk charge stage .. this where battery will absorb all the amps charger will deliver. batteries depending on chemistries like to be charged at 1C to .5C rates. For a typical 12 volt AGM battery, charging voltage going into a battery will reach 14.6-14.8 volts, while flooded batteries can be even higher. For gel battery, voltage should be no more than 14.2-14.3 volts.

2. Absorption charge phase .... Once the battery has reached about 80% state of charge, charger will enter the absorption stage. At this point most chargers will maintain a steady voltage, while amps declines. The lower current going into the battery safely brings up the charge to full.

This stage takes more time. For instance, the last remaining 20% of the battery takes much longer when compared to the first 20% during the bulk stage. The current continuously declines until the battery almost reaches full.

3. Float stage .. Some chargers enter float mode as early as 85% state of charge but others begin closer to 95%. Either way, the float stage brings battery all the way to full and maintains 100% state of charge. The voltage will taper down and maintain at a steady 13.2-13.4 volts, which is maximum voltage a battery will hold. The current decreases to a point where it's considered a trickle.

some trickle chargers never stop charging, eventually overcharging battery vs an intelligent trickle charger knows when to stop all current without turning off. those chargers are completely safe to leave a battery in float mode for months to even years at a time.

my preferred charger for AGM motorcycle batteries is a Schauer 6 amp automotive charger, the non-intelligent type. also have a 15 amp Schauer and 60 amp Snap-on for truck size auto AGM & flooded PB batteries.

note Schauer non-intelligent chargers, once it reaches full charge will not terminate current. but will deliver a small trickle charge long as charger is plugged in. this means you need to unplug charger after charging overnight. just don't leave charger over 48 hours in trickle mode.

advantage of dumb chargers .. they just work... no wrong measurement of internal resistance by intelligent chargers to prevent charging certain type batteries. like motorcycle size AGM batteries.



this Schauer 25amp intelligent charger works good for auto sized AGM, but sucks for motorcycle size AGM. switches to float mode way too soon.






this odd-ball charger made in 60's .. charges at 15.3v or perfect for reconditioning a badly discharged AGM.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:54 AM   #345
Wanderer2012
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CY...

Thanks for your reply, and info... Now that got me thinking, so thought id share some thoughts, see if you have any answers...

04 R1100S, 10k miles, Original BMW Battery, 19mah gel i think, with a don't sell date of end 07, bike sold new end of 07...

Our summer temps 80f to 90f, winter down around the 30f, summer now, and while riding around town the other day, stop start at many lights, i decided to kill the motor at lights using the kill switch, which means the lights on, indicator on, ignition still live, when the lights go green hit the starter and go...

So the thinking is not to sit idling for ages, getting the motor temps up, but obviously putting more stress on the battery and starter...

How much juice is being used doing that, and would a Shorai handle that...

The listed Shorai battery for my bike is LFX21L6-BS12

I use Lipo, and Life batteries in model planes, and have the charging gear with balancers...
Keen to save a lot of weight, standard battery is 6.4kg...

I figure i shall need to replace the battery before long, its got to be on the way out for its age if nothing else, really surprised its still there, and working...

Cheers Jeremy
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