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Old 01-24-2013, 11:19 PM   #15571
twinrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambo View Post
Why do you have that upside down plunger looking thing attached to the underside of your shifter?


That's the quick shifter.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:50 AM   #15572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinrider View Post
That's the quick shifter.
Nah, it's a spin shifter...slow, but steady and sure.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:28 AM   #15573
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Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
Most religions seem to have something to say about that



That is part of the reason for doing it. As you are now aware parts of Australia outside Victoria can be a bit detrimental to your health if you get stuck.

So I want to know the signs and solutions is it happens. I also want to know how it happens so I can avoid it.
because of the interwebs I knew pretty much, in theory, how to deal with it.

I now know how many times the battery will start the bike (30+) without a recharge.

I have also short cycled, started and shut down the bike twice since the hard start and it hasn't missed a beat. The only difference being the battery is now completely charged,

And if I think back on the days of carburetors, I'm not complaining. Really. No more sticky slides, rotating venturis, pump circuits not working, linkages unbolting themselves mid corner...bla bla bla..

I know, all operator error.

They still sell DCOE Webers you know.
Quite the enigma, this condition is. Just as you did, I tried all sorts of ways to induce the hard-start problem on my bike and was 'unsuccessful.' The only time I had any sort of issue was when my GPS drained the battery overnight to the point that the engine barely turned over. Then, and only then, did I experience the pop, sputter and reluctance to start. I gave'er a jump and she fired-off at WFO with a gurgle or two. I've had no issues when the battery is reasonably charged, but am not claiming battery charge state as the cause of other owners' occasional woes either.

I'm definitely not discounting what others are experiencing- just that my SA spec scoot doesn't seem to have the problem. From my experience, a Yahama of any shape or form (with a gasoline engine) seems to generally be more finicky about starting. We have Yammie ATV's at work that are a pain to start from time to time.. Same with the snow mobiles. Honda ATV's experience this type of problem very rarely by comparison. Just my observation.

I'm also reluctant to fault anybody for using an improper starting procedure when the wonders of modern technology should be taking care of this already. I owned one of the first fuel injected, production Japanese bikes (CBR1100XX). You couldn't phase that bike no matter how long (or short) you let it run or what you exposed it to. That was in 1999, so there really isn't an excuse for the issues we are seeing today.

That said, I'm comfortable with the work-around if I ever encounter what some of you are experiencing. It's not a show-stopper for me because this bike does so many things so well.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:49 AM   #15574
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Originally Posted by RoyQ View Post
Regardless of "know it all" convincing everyone here that it's all in their head and they don't know how to start a motorcycle.



BTW my throttle cables are loose with slack
There, there, Roy...that's not all that's loose.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:04 AM   #15575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tremor38 View Post
I'm also reluctant to fault anybody for using an improper starting procedure when the wonders of modern technology should be taking care of this already. I owned one of the first fuel injected, production Japanese bikes (CBR1100XX). You couldn't phase that bike no matter how long (or short) you let it run or what you exposed it to. That was in 1999, so there really isn't an excuse for the issues we are seeing today.
While I agree that the technology should be bullet-proof, it is not fair to compare today's FI systems (in the USA) with those before mid-2005. From 1998 to 2005, emissions regulations allowed for open-loop fuel injection systems. As tighter regulations were applied in 2006, systems were required to add lambda sensors and function in closed-loop mode during starting and cold running (warm-up periods), before switching to open-loop mode. The closed-loop mode is where 90% of the problems seem to be coming from. Ducati, for instance, had a wonderful open-loop system on the ST2 and ST4/ST4s and the first ST3 ('05) through mid-2005. Beginning in 2006, the ST3/ST3s had a closed-loop system that was full of issues. To my knowledge, all of the fuel injected CBR-1100XX Blackbirds (1999-2003 in the USA) were open-loop FI.

Has anyone identified the closed-loop sensor(s) on the S-10? Are they still lambda sensor(s)? Can they be adjusted for those with this hard starting problem? If the control systems aren't too different, reading about the Ducati solutions in 2006/2007 might actually be educational.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:51 PM   #15576
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Last hard start tests...

[edit] Just so that everything is the in the one spot....

There have been a few users experience the dreaded "hard start".

There is a particular set of things that have to be done to induce this.

Since I have never had this problem I was keen to see whether I could induce it by running through a few scenarios that have led to it...

This is a bit of a log to see whether I could nail down the important parts.

First day was just running through a few of the ideas that had been floating around. (sped up so it doesn't drag on too long)

20th Jan 2013


That was a complete fail as far as the hard start goes.

But often people talk about the bike being left for a few days after fiddling or washing.

Well after 2 1/2 days of sitting without the bike being touched and that includes not charging the battery...

23 Jan 2013.


Now it was cleared pretty easily by going for 1/2 throttle, Some go Wide open and it clears.

After the last video I gave the battery a good rest and a charge.

24 Jan 2013
Started fine. Starting to think it is a combination of a slightly flat battery, cold bike and being left after some short runs.

26 Jan 2013

Last hard tests...


Pretty clear how it happens, pretty clear how to clear it. Put it down to modern closed loop FI. Also note that after the ECU "thinks" the engine has fired , probably from the initial burst of engine acceleration, it turns the headlight on. If you want to save some battery life cycle the ignition again and the headlights will turn off again. No point burning 100W for no reason. It may be a part of the problem.

All of them are together in the "sticky thread" --> Click here <--
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:00 PM   #15577
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Nice job GrahamD. Thanks.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:52 PM   #15578
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That's just a little bottle jack under the skid plate... Just holding up the bike. Were working with Ohlins on a totally new 30mm cartridge kit for the Tenere. Should have the new forks back next week. Ill post some pictures and ride report with the new hardware.....






Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambo View Post
Why do you have that upside down plunger looking thing attached to the underside of your shifter?






[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:10 PM   #15579
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Graham,

May I ask, why don't you just hold the start button down one time until it starts... I notice you hit the button about ten times but it doesn't even sound as if the crank is making one revolution ?

It would seem to me that there is obviously a prime 'squirt' when someone turns the key on. I would also think that the injector pulse is probably a bit longer the first few revolutions, and probably has a "fueling sequence" as in 'pulse and duration' each time someone touches the starter button... This "sequence" is probably only initialized from something like 0-10% throttle opening.. But this "sequence" might be turned off or tricked if the throttle is held wide open.

I say this because I had a Tenere here in the shop last week that had something similar with a week battery. I held the starter down and it cranked slow, then tried again, put a charger on it for a few minutes and again. I put my nose at the rear muffler and smelled like raw fuel... After a few more minutes I held the throttle open all the way and it fired up. I did hold the button down until it started. It choked a bit and then ran rough for a few seconds... It sounded like it was kinda flooded....... It had that sound and feeling of a flooded engine.

With that being said, is it possible that these hard starting situation could be because of a semi-fuel injected flooding scenario ? If the bike gets the first prime, and then goes into its normal "starting fuel sequence" and doesn't start, the natural thing is to try again......... But that is just adding more and more fuel.....


I found out last year working with the PCV & AT that the Tenere has a cold start software package in the ECM.. It goes though a different starting / worm up procedure when cold VS when its worm... We could see this on the AT maps when I thought I was seeing something strange last winter.... There is defiantly a different fuel map "sequence" Etc in the cold VS wormer weather.. And its not just when the bike starts but runs a whole different fuel map. This is not added or aftermarket, this is stock. I'm sure its adding more fuel. But what we don't know is on start up it could be really extending the fuel duration or phasing. And also it could be resetting it self each time we hit the start button or turn the key on or off.. Try it, I bet you will smell lots of raw fuel in the muffler.


So, to recap, if its cold, and people hit the started several times I have a feeling, or my thoughts are this seems to be more of an 'over fueling' on start up sequence. It seems the only way to trick the computer is to quite possibly hold the throttle open to turn this fuel off. *** also, when you hold the throttle open you are NOT holding the butter flies open on the throttle bodies..*** These are all computer controlled by the ECM.. This is not cable operated. IMOP, This is a software issue, not a hardware problem. The old days you would be holding open the butter fly and alow in a ton of air to off set the extra fuel, more times than not it would fire up. On this bike its software and sensors, not cables and parts, per-se. We are not in control of this motor, the ECM is... Our riding experiance is a relationship with sensors and software.

These are just a few thoughts I had and wanted to throw on the table to try and help the crowd..... On my bike I touch the starter for less than one second and she has always just fired right up on a dime....





Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
Last hard tests...


Pretty clear how it happens, pretty clear how to clear it. Put it down to modern closed loop FI. Also note that after the ECU "thinks" the engine has fired , probably from the initial burst of engine acceleration, it turns the headlight on. If you want to save some battery life cycle the ignition again and the headlights will turn off again. No point burning 100W for no reason. It may be a part of the problem. Don't keep cranking without opening that throttle up.

All of them are together here
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:27 PM   #15580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~TABASCO~ View Post
That's just a little bottle jack under the skid plate... Just holding up the bike. Were working with Ohlins on a totally new 30mm cartridge kit for the Tenere. Should have the new forks back next week. Ill post some pictures and ride report with the new hardware.....
Jaxon,

Will the 30mm cartridge kit require special Ohlins springs?

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:35 PM   #15581
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Originally Posted by avc8130 View Post
Jaxon,

Will the 30mm cartridge kit require special Ohlins springs?

ac

It comes with springs.. and everything is designed for each customer and there needs... There are ten sets that are made. We have deposits on 7-8 of those sets already. If you have any questions feel free to call me at the office or Email me anytime... Ill be happy to talk your ear off...
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:59 PM   #15582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~TABASCO~ View Post
Graham,

May I ask, why don't you just hold the start button down one time until it starts... I notice you hit the button about ten times but it doesn't even sound as if the crank is making one revolution ?
You may

See the link at the bottom of that post. I spent a day trying to figure out how to induce a hard start by going through all the popular theories on the interwebs. You should watch all three video's. It's just that I never had the problem and there is not much point speculating about it until it can be reliably re-produced. Once that happens then you can work on reliably fixing the condition. So now I know what to watch for and what to do if it happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~TABASCO~ View Post
It would seem to me that there is obviously a prime 'squirt' when someone turns the key on.
Nope there isn't I don't think. I can turn that key as many times as I like and it has no effect. See video 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~TABASCO~ View Post
I would also think that the injector pulse is probably a bit longer the first few revolutions, and probably has a "fueling sequence" as in 'pulse and duration' each time someone touches the starter button.....

With that being said, is it possible that these hard starting situation could be because of a semi-fuel injected flooding scenario ?

With that being said, is it possible that these hard starting situation could be because of a semi-fuel injected flooding scenario ? If the bike gets the first prime, and then goes into its normal "starting fuel sequence" and doesn't start, the natural thing is to try again......... But that is just adding more and more fuel.....

I found out last year working with the PCV & AT that the Tenere has a cold start software package in the ECM.. It goes though a different starting / worm up procedure when cold VS when its worm... We could see this on the AT maps when I thought I was seeing something strange last winter.... There is defiantly a different fuel map "sequence" Etc in the cold VS wormer weather.. And its not just when the bike starts but runs a whole different fuel map. This is not added or aftermarket, this is stock. I'm sure its adding more fuel. But what we don't know is on start up it could be really extending the fuel duration or phasing. And also it could be resetting it self each time we hit the start button or turn the key on or off.. Try it, I bet you will smell lots of raw fuel in the muffler.


So, to recap, if its cold, and people hit the started several times I have a feeling, or my thoughts are this seems to be more of an 'over fueling' on start up sequence. It seems the only way to trick the computer is to quite possibly hold the throttle open to turn this fuel off. *** also, when you hold the throttle open you are NOT holding the butter flies open on the throttle bodies..*** These are all computer controlled by the ECM.. This is not cable operated. IMOP, This is a software issue, not a hardware problem. The old days you would be holding open the butter fly and alow in a ton of air to off set the extra fuel, more times than not it would fire up. On this bike its software and sensors, not cables and parts, per-se. We are not in control of this motor, the ECM is... Our riding experiance is a relationship with sensors and software.

These are just a few thoughts I had and wanted to throw on the table to try and help the crowd..... On my bike I touch the starter for less than one second and she has always just fired right up on a dime....
Pretty well sums it up.

Anyway go and watch the three viseo's. It should validate what you said. I pretty much agree. The best thing about videos is you can watch them over and over and notice things you missed, like when the headlight actually comes on.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:12 PM   #15583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~TABASCO~ View Post
It comes with springs.. and everything is designed for each customer and there needs... There are ten sets that are made. We have deposits on 7-8 of those sets already. If you have any questions feel free to call me at the office or Email me anytime... Ill be happy to talk your ear off...
I figured it would have to. 30mm pistons will require larger diameter cartridges. Larger diameter cartridges, I figured, would lead to springs with a larger ID.

I'm excited to hear the reviews. I'm sure they will rock.

ac
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:52 PM   #15584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avc8130 View Post
I figured it would have to. 30mm pistons will require larger diameter cartridges. Larger diameter cartridges, I figured, would lead to springs with a larger ID.

I'm excited to hear the reviews. I'm sure they will rock.

ac

It ended up being a lot of custom work.. There where several parts that had to be custom machined and other parts that had to be flown in from Sweden and then machined over here. I have a good feeling it will be worth it !!!
The forks are out for DLC right now....
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:21 AM   #15585
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It ended up being a lot of custom work.. There where several parts that had to be custom machined and other parts that had to be flown in from Sweden and then machined over here. I have a good feeling it will be worth it !!!
The forks are out for DLC right now....
I'm surprised they had such issues. The forks are very standard internals, just longer than most sport bike.

The "Diamond Like Carbon" will look awesome. You'll have to take very accurate set of static sag measurements to see if they really do result in less stiction.

ac
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