The issues of fuel injectors and "adventure" bikes

[Tepi]

You can crack a carb wide open in a crash.... try fixing that on the side of the road.

[fallingoff]

Originally Posted by eric2

Delusions, you haz them.

planned obsolescence? are we talking about points or electronic ignition? What special tools are needed to fix electronic ignition? You're talking out of your ass. I have 150k between k1200s and r1200gs and have never had an electronics issue, and the plugs in the GS last 50k easily.

Bearings without grease ports? WTF are you talking about? I'm not aware of any mfg, car or bike putting grease ports on in this day and age. Final drives taking dumps? pretty small percentage considering how many have been sold, and I never even serviced the FD on ANY of my 7 bmws so equipped, including 2 airheads.

And whats with this nonsense "VS R80 G/S monolever final drive are bathe in oil and typically last life of bike. "
You don't think new FDs are bathed in oil? You're making a fool out of yourself.

Here's a real laugher:

"you are dreaming if you think new BMW motorcyles are more reliable than my R80 G/S. this is assuming both are in same condition. for instance my R80 G/S has gone though a frame-off rebuilt ... engine balanced to 1/10 gram, tranny refreshed, new wiring harness, all bearings/seals replaced, shocks front and rear revalved, upgrade alternator, new cables, carbs refresh, etc. etc. "

How many miles were on your R80gs when you had to do a frame off rebuild? You conveniently left out that part. I haven't had to do that on my r12gs, and its got 125k miles on it.

Finally, a tank of bad fuel is not going to destroy an engine just because it doesn't have knock sensor. You really have lost it and show you really are clueless as to the workings of simple mechanics. Wouldn't there be a lot of destroyed engines if this is the case?

I'm with Jim, this is a luddite thread that started out as a debate between FI and carbs and has now devolved into
longing for the good old days when bikes were "reliable".

Here's the news, my R75/5 and R65Ls were the most unreliable bikes I've owned. The R65LS alone had these failures
before 50k miles.

Oil soaked clutch
Broken shift linkage in transmission (warranty)
Dual coils exploded 60 miles outside Waco
Open in the alternator rotor (common problem but not everyone carries a spare because its so unreliable)
paint peeling off wheels
leaky FD
carb diaphrams
throttle linkage\gears
diode board
floats sticking in carbs spilling fuel everywhere.
rotting exhaust pipes
alternator too weak to keep battery charged in town
difficult to start in cold weather.

I finally sold it after 12 years and only 90k miles, and it likely needed a top end rebuild.

What really irritates airhead lovers is the superior mileage my r1200gs gets, I was lucky to get 40mpg
on my airheads on the highway but can average 45mpg around town now. How can a motor with twice the displacement
get better mileage? FI and electronic ignition thats how, and running out of gas will leave you just as starnded
as these new "unreliable" bikes do.


You've convinced me though, I can make my reliable r1200gs even more reliable by fitting carbs, converting to points
and condenser, changing to monolever FD. I'm also gonna ditch the hydraulics and switch to drum brakes and cables to make it bulletproof.

sorry mate
i have had two
stick coil failures on my k12s
both worked out of the bike
not when installed
also my old beveldrive duc ran with no battery
one kick start.

cheers

[windmill]

I don't question that EFI is functionally superior, but..................................





When someone claims that this is less prone to failure and is easier to fix.................................


Than this........................


well...........................

[larryboy]

Originally Posted by windmill

well...........................

I'll take picture number two for $1200, windmill. Especially right here, all alone:

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by windmill

I don't question that EFI is functionally superior, but..................................

When someone claims that this is less prone to failure and is easier to fix.................................


Than this........................


well...........................

Exactly!!!! man I'm saving these pic's ... gets the point across.

[fallingoff]

Originally Posted by windmill

I don't question that EFI is functionally superior, but..................................





When someone claims that this is less prone to failure and is easier to fix.................................


Than this........................


well...........................

both are full of black magic

cheers

[Fictitious]

Originally Posted by windmill

I don't question that EFI is functionally superior, but..................................





When someone claims that this is less prone to failure and is easier to fix.................................


Than this........................


well...........................

The wiring diagram really isn't that complicated. The carb, on the other hand, has a buttload of tiny passages, small moving parts, springs, jets, and needles. All of which can be broken beyond repair in a crash or when you decide to take it apart on the roadside. They can also be easily lost on the ground. Heck, I have a hard enough time keeping track of all my carb parts in the garage. I can't fix a bent a bent throttle needle roadside anymore then I can fix a broken ECU. Not to mention, even most carb'd bikes have ECU's these days, so by having a carb you aren't eliminating that "scary" wiring diagram, you're just making it smaller.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Fictitious

The wiring diagram really isn't that complicated. The carb, on the other hand, has a buttload of tiny passages, small moving parts, springs, jets, and needles. All of which can be broken beyond repair in a crash or when you decide to take it apart on the roadside. They can also be easily lost on the ground. Heck, I have a hard enough time keeping track of all my carb parts in the garage. I can't fix a bent a bent throttle needle roadside anymore then I can fix a broken ECU. Not to mention, even most carb'd bikes have ECU's these days, so by having a carb you aren't eliminating that "scary" wiring diagram, you're just making it smaller.

pleaseeesssee ... do you actually belief that horseshit?

[Paebr332]

Originally Posted by _cy_

pleaseeesssee ... do you actually belief that horseshit?

I do.

Find a schematic diagram for the computer you are posting from, then place a simplified typewriter diagram next to it. Geez, that fancy 'puter thing is WAY too complex. It must be broken down all the time, what with all them thar fancy little pieces.

Mechanical systems are inherently subject to mechanical wear and mechanical maladjustment. Oddly enough it is almost always the mechanical parts (pump first of all) of the an EFI system that fail. So the solution the Luddites propose is to use a COMPLETELY mechanical system.

Brilliant!

[NJ-Brett]

I find FI to be very simple, and systems on bikes so far are dirt simple.
On a Japanese bike, you can expect very few problems, and if you educate yourself about it, its very easy to trouble shoot and fix a problem, car or bike.

Besides some crappy German and American cars, its typical for a FI system on a modern car to be trouble free for the life of the car.

And if you want to compare FI and carbs, do not post up diagrams of crappy CV carbs with poor throttle response, post up a pumper carb, which is as good as FI.

I like both systems, FI is no fuss, sellf correcting, gets better range out of a tank of gas, and a good pumper carb is cheap and easy to dial in. Both are WAY better then CV carbs!

Carbs and their vacuum petcocks have more problems on average then FI on a good brand bike, but can be fixed easy and cheap.
You can keep abs, traction control, and any other stupid proof the rider systems.

If you really like old tech, get an old tube type TV set, that will keep you busy...

[kyns]

I find this carb / EFI debate funny. Since there are other reasons to end up stranded, than just fuelling.
Anything can happen.

Lets put two guys on adventure bikes. The other bike with a carb and other with an EFI. They both ride 10 000 miles in same terrain... Then lets gamble...

For the carb to break. 1 to 40 000 chance
For the EFI to fail. 1 to 38 500
To have a flat tire 1 to 500
To bend touratech crap. 1 to 1
To simply run out of fuel. 1 to 2000
To crash and break a leg. 1 to 14 000
For the drive chain to break and "weld" itself between front sprocket / engine case. 1 to 8 000
For the rider himself to weigh more than his steed, resulting in frame crack. 1 to 2

I have never had EFI fail on me, on my cars and bikes.

Maybe time for the carb people to start eating all that can food, they piled for the 2012 end of the world thing....

[Mambo Dave]

I love your list, but have to address what you wrote there at the end... I've had EFI fail plent enough on cars and trucks. usually it's just the fuel pump. Sometimes it's a sticky or bad injector.

And then, for an estimated million of us (and numerous undocumented or not worth pursuing cases like my second vehicle) a few year ago, the shipments of Shell gasoline for southeast Florida had higher levels of sulfur in them then was recommended. Tons of us were left stranded, and I bet some may have been injured from wrecks (if what happened to me was any indication - everything was ghoing fine in my bumper-to-bumper 80 miles per hour commute - that's the way they do things on I-595 - and then... nothing. I was left coasting and praying i could get over to the shoulder at a decreasing speed and with no power).

EFI is here to stay, I have no doubt. And for most situations that's probably OK. But if I ever go touring even just a few of the places I'd like to tour... if those countries ever become safe enough to ride a bike solo through... I would rather not have to be worried about the quality of the dirty fuels I'd be buying.

Carbs also have this neat thing where even if they're messed up or out of adjustment, there are methods and modes of keeping a bike running and moving one way or another. I'm not sure EFI is as forgiving, but then the other side of the equation is if EFI has a lot more leeway to work within, or reliability built in, before some such not-quite-right scenario rears its head.

Originally Posted by kyns

I find this carb / EFI debate funny. Since there are other reasons to end up stranded, than just fuelling.
Anything can happen.

Lets put two guys on adventure bikes. The other bike with a carb and other with an EFI. They both ride 10 000 miles in same terrain... Then lets gamble...

For the carb to break. 1 to 40 000 chance
For the EFI to fail. 1 to 38 500
To have a flat tire 1 to 500
To bend touratech crap. 1 to 1
To simply run out of fuel. 1 to 2000
To crash and break a leg. 1 to 14 000
For the drive chain to break and "weld" itself between front sprocket / engine case. 1 to 8 000
For the rider himself to weigh more than his steed, resulting in frame crack. 1 to 2

I have never had EFI fail on me, on my cars and bikes.

Maybe time for the carb people to start eating all that can food, they piled for the 2012 end of the world thing....

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Paebr332

I do.

Find a schematic diagram for the computer you are posting from, then place a simplified typewriter diagram next to it. Geez, that fancy 'puter thing is WAY too complex. It must be broken down all the time, what with all them thar fancy little pieces.

Mechanical systems are inherently subject to mechanical wear and mechanical maladjustment. Oddly enough, it is almost always the mechanical parts (pump first of all) of the an EFI system that fail. So the solution the Luddites propose is use a COMPLETELY mechanical system.

Brilliant!

Luddite huh

simply count the number of components below. which for fuel injection are necessary to duplicate different functions of a plain ole carburetor.

each adds an additional point of failure. ALL mechanical parts will fail at some point.

this reasoning is for an adventure bike that I'm hopefully going to be riding RTW.

OEM and dealerships LOVE complexity. which forces customers to bring their bikes back to dealership for service. when a design uses complex proprietary components like below. If/when bike breaks down ... expertise and high tech electronic testing gear are needed to diagnose actual root cause.

you've not seen fun until you get intermittent problems ... replacing hugely expensive components wrong is not high on my list of fun. sometimes simplest way to diagnose is by replacing with a known to be good part.

when/if your high tech machine breaks down in the middle of no where ... you are walking! vs low tech bike like R80G/S .. I'll be spreading out my tool kit with spares and be back up.

[Foot dragger]

Originally Posted by ttpete

Melitta plastic filter cone and paper filters. Cheap and light.

Hey! Now your talking,I use one of those cone things for coffee every morning. I dont know if gas would flow through one fast enough or what,have to try it at home.

Having said that I bought a last year carbed 2011 EXCR530 and it works great,very snappy once the EPA jetting is long gone.
The FI takes a lot of fooling around to get it to make the power it should,guys are for ever searching for just the right map and then keeping extra fuel filters always on hand is just more stuff to fiddle with. Then if an injector does clog or quit in the middle of BFE,........well, it quit,get off and find another means of transportation.

Carbs make for a lively powerband and today's carbs really work well after many years of development. I can go from sea level to 10,000' and it seems to run darn well. Im no Luddite and would like FI on my streetbike,it doesnt go in the dirt.

[Foot dragger]

Originally Posted by _cy_

Luddite huh

simply count the number of components below. which for fuel injection are necessary to duplicate different functions of a plain ole carburetor.

each adds an additional point of failure. ALL mechanical parts will fail at some point.

this reasoning is for an adventure bike that I'm hopefully going to be riding RTW. which has some of the harshest requirements of any bike.

OEM and dealerships LOVE complexity. which forces customers to bring their bikes back to dealership for service. when a design uses complex proprietary components like below. If/when bike breaks down ... expertise and high tech electronic testing gear are needed to diagnose actual root cause.

you've not seen fun until you get intermittent problems ... replacing hugely expensive components wrong is not high on my list of fun. sometimes simplest way to diagnose is by replacing with a known to be good part.

when/if your high tech machine breaks down in the middle of no where ... you are walking! vs low tech bike like R80G/S .. I'll be spreading out my tool kit with spares and be back up.

Yup,my 03 1150R had a computer glitch which imposed a rev limit at 4000 RPM,it was on warranty and off it went to the BMW shop,the diagnostic tool couldnt pin it down,they replaced every electrical part till it worked again,somewhere in the neighborhood of 3400.00 in parts not counting labor if hadnt been on warranty.
Its not always as cut and dried as a failed injector.

But cars have had FI since maybe 1987,of course they dont have to fight their way up slow steep switchbacks on a summer day in Nevada,if fuel gets to the boiling point the fuel pump will quit,then it takes a while for that to come on again.
Dirt bikes have different demands on fueling.