True Dualsports getting heavier and less powerful?

[JensEskildsen]

Yeah, its hard to get everything in one package. Everytime I bitch about my xt600 being heavy, undersuspended, underpowered ect, I allwas stop and rethink the whole thing.

I wouldn't change any of that for the reliability. Currently its at 117.000km, and the engine has never been opened. So yeah, the bike could have had more power, but would that have left me stranded a couple thousand kilometers from home on a trip? The bike could be lighter, but would my frame have held op to my use and abuse?

You just gotta buy the closest thing to what you want, and adapt the bike from there, and enjoy the versatility, if thats your game.

[Ken F]

I think the maps have lost their way or just trying to make cheaper dual sports.
I have an 09 crf250x.weighs in about 250lbs.the 230l is something like 295.some reason went back to steel frame.not sure a horn and signal lights add 45 lbs.
I do wish manufacturer would realize we are not all 6ft10.or doing 30ft jumps.I guess the dual sport is lower.now adays 125 bikes are as tall as rest.
BTW jet skis have used digital injected 2 strokes for few years but don't see them made anymore.
Think I may look into a beta.they are trying to get into the us.market

[Grreatdog]

You can't blame the tonnage increase on steel frames. Both of my orange bikes have those.

[Ken F]

Originally Posted by Grreatdog

You can't blame the tonnage increase on steel frames. Both of my orange bikes have those.

I'm not.I have KTM too.and gas gas.both light bikes I know they are 2 strokes and 4 strokes are always heavier. I did see spec.on KTM 500 at 250 lbs don't know if it had lights etc.

[Adv Grifter]

Originally Posted by Ken F

I think the maps have lost their way or just trying to make cheaper dual sports.
I have an 09 crf250x.weighs in about 250lbs.the 230l is something like 295.some reason went back to steel frame.not sure a horn and signal lights add 45 lbs.
I do wish manufacturer would realize we are not all 6ft10.or doing 30ft jumps.I guess the dual sport is lower.now adays 125 bikes are as tall as rest.
BTW jet skis have used digital injected 2 strokes for few years but don't see them made anymore.
Think I may look into a beta.they are trying to get into the us.market

Even though the CRF250X and CRF230L are both Hondas ...they really have nothing in common. I did extensive mods on a friends 230 (off road version) and know the CRF250X pretty well too.
The main thing to remember is the 250X is a full race bike from the git. Alu. frame, (F.I. on newer ones), top shelf suspension, best wheels.

I've ridden a couple different X's ... love that bike. But both my buddies had repeated serious engine failures ... same with 450 version. Bad Ju Ju.
Pretty common on early CRF250's, no? Everyone re-does valve gear.

The 230's are made in Brazil. That should tell you something. No real high tech weight saving effort, very low budget components for the most part and a bike that is about half price of the CRF250X. But the 230 motor is a hammer .... much like the unstoppable XR's of yesteryear. Not fancy or powerful ... just keeps running. The CRF250X is a delicate jewel in comparison.

On my buddies 230 I rebuilt the forks adding Race Tech emulators. Huge difference. Sent the shock out for rebuild too ... awesome upgrade to previously un-ride able stock one. Re-jetted carb and did a few other mods for comfort/durability.

That cheap little bastard is nearly as good on a knarly trail as my WR250F ... easier to ride (BECAUSE IT'S LOWER!) The WR responds best to aggressive riding, true to it's MotoX roots. But at a crawl its not perfect. The 230 is not half bad, slow, yes, but a perfect old guy bike for moderate dual sport use, reliable and not expensive and so easy to maintain.

The CRF250X could be worth converting to dual sport if one could get the motor reliable. Rode in Baja with a guy on a CRF450X ... blew up in Bahia de Los Angeles. On the bus ... 500 miles to the border.

[Duken4evr]

Here is my list:

The best hard core dirt oriented sold as fully street legal dual sport on earth is the Husaberg FE570. Very few know how truly cool these things are. They have amazing but usable power, and they have well made/durable powerplants with adequate (1.5 quarts single sump) oil capacity and good electrical (211 watts) output for a fan and accessories. A few fixable fuel pump niggles, but the hard metal spinny whirly parts are good durable stuff and the slant engine 'Bergs are very smooth runners with little vibration with a wide ratio XC-W trans that makes street cruising easy. The stock seats are good off road, but weapons of ass destruction on the street though.

Best dirt capable dual sport that is truly road worthy is the KTM 690, with an honorable mention to the Husky TE 610/630. Love those previous gen Huskys. They are durable, they are cool and they are my personal idea of a "dual sport". Actually favor them over the undeniably cooler KTM 690 for their simplicity.

Road worthy dual sport that is capable of a some dirt looks to be the new Husky Terra. These appeal rationally as they have the unbreakable BMW engine tweaked to make good power, look sharp and are excellent on the street and decent off road, but leave me a little cold emotionally. I want my dual sport nastier and dirtier, and some of the cost cutting moves suck the cool factor out of them. Rational thought should win out though, the new Husky is an excellent value and really would make a nice ADV bike that involves somewhat difficult off road terrain. The new Husky seems to be in the running when it comes to a real do it all pretty well dual sport.

Although a vastly different experience, the WR250R is highway capable (learn to love the revs) and can be ridden pretty fast off road. Makes me wonder what the mythical and as yet unbuilt WR450R could do.

Best dual sport that can cover all surfaces on earth and be fixed with a flat blade screwdriver and a rock in the outback of Panama award goes to the DR650. The big DR is my choice as a post nuclear zombie ride.

What we want and what we need are two different things. A light and tall dirt bike bike is cool, but they suck on the road. It is just the nature of things. 15 miles of pavement on my plated 'Berg and I am ready to pull off. 15 miles of gnarly single track? Just getting warmed up. 15 miles of pavement on a DR650 is a piece of cake. Just shoot me after 15 miles of gnarly single track on a DR though :)

[Adv Grifter]

Originally Posted by Duken4evr

Best dual sport that can cover all surfaces on earth and be fixed with a flat blade screwdriver and a rock in the outback of Panama award goes to the DR650. The big DR is my choice as a post nuclear zombie ride.

What we want and what we need are two different things. A light and tall dirt bike bike is cool, but they suck on the road. It is just the nature of things. 15 miles of pavement on my plated 'Berg and I am ready to pull off. 15 miles of gnarly single track? Just getting warmed up. 15 miles of pavement on a DR650 is a piece of cake. Just shoot me after 15 miles of gnarly single track on a DR though :)

Well the DR is no single track attack dog, no question, but it's surprising where it can be ridden. The good news about the DR650 ... is it can RIDDEN ... (NOT trailered) to Panama ... and back.

Love the Bergs. I was lucky enough to ride a demo for a couple weeks in the Mojave. Way better bike than I am rider. I had an '05 550E.
I am hoping KTM/Berg will make an Adventure Dual Sport version of a Berg. They are exquisite motorcycles ... in fact, best bike I ever rode in the Desert. But ... if going to Panama ... I'll take my DR650.
Post apocalypse single track? CRF230 (modified as above)

[montesa_vr]

Sorry, but I totally reject the premise that dual sports are getting heavier and slower. OK, the current 650 class of Japanese dual sports are true porkers, but they are also quite a bit more powerful than their 500 and 600 cc predecessors. The 250 class really hasn't gained any weight in 40 years, and power is way up.

Example: Honda's XL250 from 1976 weighed 323 pounds on Motorcyclist Magazine's scales. What advantage does it have over today's Honda 250?

Example: A Yamaha WR250R is both lighter and faster than either of the XT500 Yamahas that I owned. Faster in the quarter mile, faster in top speed. Yeah, I know, no comparison at 3000 - 5000 rpm, but you can't say dual sports are getting slower.

The lightest 250 4-stroke Japanese dual sport ever was Yamaha's XT250 from 1980 to 1983, which came in at 265. It was very light (partly because the 1.7 gallon tank reduced fuel weight). It was also air-cooled, 5-speed, kick start only, drum brakes, 6V lighting, 35mm fork tubes with 7.5 inches of travel, and even with it's "modern" counterbalancer Cycle said "longer than 30 minutes at freeway speed you'll find yourself buzzing when you stop."

The 2-stroke Japanese dual sports weren't as light as people remember. In 1976 the Suzuki TS250 weighed 288 lbs, the Yamaha DT250C, 288 lbs, the Honda MT250K2, 284 lbs, the Kawasaki 250 F11A, 282 lbs. They weren't powerful either -- the fastest, the Yamaha, struggled to a top speed of 73 mph. The Kawasaki and Honda couldn't even hit 70. So it's not like we've passed the golden age of dual sports.

Yes, some of the weight from today's bikes is EPA related, and that's why you should stop blaming the Japanese for not competing with KTM and Gas Gas. The EPA has different rules for manufacturers selling less than 3,000 units in the US, regardless of global sales and endless variations in the form of hardship provisions, in which a manufacturer can gain a three-year exemption from current rules by demonstrating they have done the best they can and that compliance would affect the company's solvency. http://www.aimag.com/epa/Nov04-pt2.htm

The fact of the matter is today's dual sports are faster, smoother, longer travel, more sophisticated and more convenient than ever, while weighing about the same as they have for 40 years. So stop your bellyaching.

[Grreatdog]

Do you really believe KTM sells less than 3000 bikes per year in the USA? Maybe GasGas, but KTM sells four or five times that in a bad year. Their sales figures range from 12,000 to over 20,000 motorcycles per year here.

They just have a different mindset about how to build motorcycles. Can you imagine any product liability lawyers from a Japanese company giving the OK to a motto that says "Ready to Race" for everything they roll out the door?

Just count the number of warning stickers pasted to a Japanese dual sport plus the number in the pamphlet that passes for an owners manual to see that corporate philosophy in action. Then compare that to how many are stuck to a KTM or in the owners briefcase.

The Japanese seem to want zero product liability from either warranty, emissions or accidents. KTM figures the owner is going to strip half he DOT/EPA crap off the bike, ride it like they stole it and then fix whatever they break be it body or bike.

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by Duken4evr

Here is my list:




Best dual sport that can cover all surfaces on earth and be fixed with a flat blade screwdriver and a rock in the outback of Panama award goes to the DR650. The big DR is my choice as a post nuclear zombie ride.

What we want and what we need are two different things. A light and tall dirt bike bike is cool, but they suck on the road. It is just the nature of things. 15 miles of pavement on my plated 'Berg and I am ready to pull off. 15 miles of gnarly single track? Just getting warmed up. 15 miles of pavement on a DR650 is a piece of cake. Just shoot me after 15 miles of gnarly single track on a DR though :)

The ONLY thing the DR650 has going for it is reliabilty! it WILL last forever and endure with lack of maintenance. I bought one new in 2000 and after 12 years and 13k miles sold if for a same year KTM LC4 640. I had a few repeated electrical issues, but overall it was a dependable bike..I just realized after getting the big KTM how much I didn't like the lower/outdated Suzuki. I ride serious dual sport and the DR650 was a handful for serious offroad! I personally view the DR650 more like a lighter/high fender/single cylinder version of my V Strom. So some of us old(er) guys don't always want the old style/lower d/s bikes of the past! BTW BERG! yup BEST one in its class!

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by montesa_vr

Sorry, but I totally reject the premise that dual sports are getting heavier and slower. OK, the current 650 class of Japanese dual sports are true porkers, but they are also quite a bit more powerful than their 500 and 600 cc predecessors. The 250 class really hasn't gained any weight in 40 years, and power is way up.



So it's not like we've passed the golden age of dual sports.



The fact of the matter is today's dual sports are faster, smoother, longer travel, more sophisticated and more convenient than ever, while weighing about the same as they have for 40 years. So stop your bellyaching.

LOL! True Montesa_vr!!! I'm 56 and what keeps me riding fast and a lot is the 'new iron'. I love my garage full of old OSSAs & Suzuki PEs, but I'll ride one for an afternoon and thats enough 'old bike' ride for awhile for me! I wish..I wish there was a european bike...that had over 10 inches of suspension...I wish there were reliable two strokes and 4 strokes with electric start... I wish they made them fairly unbreakable... I wish... HELL I own them now!! I'm loving the future(its here,.its all good..bottom line..theres lots of great stuff for us to choose from nowadays..lets ride!!)

[acesandeights]

Originally Posted by CJBDRdude

The ONLY thing the DR650 has going for it is reliabilty! it WILL last forever and endure with lack of maintenance. I bought one new in 2000 and after 12 years and 13k miles sold if for a same year KTM LC4 640. I had a few repeated electrical issues, but overall it was a dependable bike..I just realized after getting the big KTM how much I didn't like the lower/outdated Suzuki. I ride serious dual sport and the DR650 was a handful for serious offroad! I personally view the DR650 more like a lighter/high fender/single cylinder version of my V Strom. So some of us old(er) guys don't always want the old style/lower d/s bikes of the past! BTW BERG! yup BEST one in its class!

The only thing going for it is reliability? Seems it also has a huge aftermarket following, relatively inexpensive to change the suspension (which is very rider dependent, and I'd need to do on any bike I purchased). To compare it to a VStrom seems way off base to me. Seems much closer to say an XR650 than a VStrom. I don't own a VStrom, you do, but after having sat on a VStrom they don't feel anything similar and it's hard to imagine they ride anything alike offroad.

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

The only thing going for it is reliability? Seems it also has a huge aftermarket following, relatively inexpensive to change the suspension (which is very rider dependent, and I'd need to do on any bike I purchased). To compare it to a VStrom seems way off base to me. Seems much closer to say an XR650 than a VStrom. I don't own a VStrom, you do, but after having sat on a VStrom they don't feel anything similar and it's hard to imagine they ride anything alike offroad.

My point is they are a good general purpose bike and yes inexpensive. But in my opinion they're not in the same league as KTM, Husky, GasGas, BMW or even a Honda XR650 all of which are more offroad oriented than the DR.
I still have my V Strom and had the DR650 for twelve years which allows me to my opinion. The DR is closer to what the Strom is.. more of a general purpose adventure bike. The Strom was much better on the pavement and thats also where the DR is happiest. Why have two bikes for the same purpose? BTW, I had the DR set up for offroad> suspension, seat, bars, tires, pipe, Clarke tank..etc. Its fun, cheap but NO WAY a real offroad bike. If you want that in a Suzuki the best they have to offer is the DRZ400.

[NesquikNinja]

Heavier and less powerful?

Nope. You're all getting weaker and fatter.

[Albie]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

The only thing going for it is reliability? Seems it also has a huge aftermarket following, relatively inexpensive to change the suspension (which is very rider dependent, and I'd need to do on any bike I purchased). To compare it to a VStrom seems way off base to me. Seems much closer to say an XR650 than a VStrom. I don't own a VStrom, you do, but after having sat on a VStrom they don't feel anything similar and it's hard to imagine they ride anything alike offroad.

I own a Strom and a DR and you're right, they're nothing alike.