True Dualsports getting heavier and less powerful?

[acesandeights]

Originally Posted by CJBDRdude

My point is they are a good general purpose bike and yes inexpensive. But in my opinion they're not in the same league as KTM, Husky, GasGas, BMW or even a Honda XR650 all of which are more offroad oriented than the DR.
I still have my V Strom and had the DR650 for twelve years which allows me to my opinion. The DR is closer to what the Strom is.. more of a general purpose adventure bike. The Strom was much better on the pavement and thats also where the DR is happiest. Why have two bikes for the same purpose? BTW, I had the DR set up for offroad> suspension, seat, bars, tires, pipe, Clarke tank..etc. Its fun, cheap but NO WAY a real offroad bike. If you want that in a Suzuki the best they have to offer is the DRZ400.

Yep, you've got more years experience with the bike, more miles with the bike, and a VStrom to compare. My experience is very different than yours. I agree they are not in the same league as a KTM, Husky, GasGas or BMW. I would consider them in the same league as an XR650 though, and more of a "true dualsport" than most KTM, Husky, GasGas or BMW, which is the title of the thread.

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by Albie

I own a Strom and a DR and you're right, they're nothing alike.

You're missing my point. I didn't refer to the DR and V Strom being the same kind of bike. My reference was they both do well in pretty much the same area of riding> Pavement. The DR650 is a fantastic pavement bike and so is the Strom! The DR no matter what you do to it(In my opinion) will never be a decent offroad motorcycle. I learned that after 12 years of tinkering and tweaking trying to make the DR into an offroad bike.

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

Yep, you've got more years experience with the bike, more miles with the bike, and a VStrom to compare. My experience is very different than yours. I agree they are not in the same league as a KTM, Husky, GasGas or BMW. I would consider them in the same league as an XR650 though, and more of a "true dualsport" than most KTM, Husky, GasGas or BMW, which is the title of the thread.

I disgree with your Honda comment. The XR650 is MUCH more dirt worthy than the DR650 will ever be! I'm not much of a Honda fan, but if I was to buy a Jap Dual Sport in the 650 size again.. it would definitely be the Honda.

In my opinion, Suzuki should take the much loved (but really outdated) DR650 and make it more like the heavy Kawasaki KLR 650 which also has its 'cult' following. You know, bigger gas tank, lower to the ground, heavier than an ox - more pavement oriented still. I have buddies that own KLRs and weren't happy when Kawi went 'more street' with their latest DUAL SPORT design. I also find the guys that ride the KLRs/DRs(for the most part) don't ride offroad as much or as aggressively as the crowd riding KTMs, Husky, GasGas and Honda XR650s! As a TRUE dual sport the perfect bike should do both equally. True??? There is NO perfect 50/50 bike. So the way I view it - The KLR/DR crowd prefers mostly pavement/dirt road stuff and the KTM, Husky, Honda XR crowd prefers the mostly true offroad stuff!

[acesandeights]

Originally Posted by CJBDRdude

I disgree with your Honda comment. The XR650 is MUCH more dirt worthy than the DR650 will ever be! I'm not much of a Honda fan, but if I was to buy a Jap Dual Sport in the 650 size again.. it would definitely be the Honda.

In my opinion, Suzuki should take the much loved (but really outdated) DR650 and make it more like the heavy Kawasaki KLR 650 which also has its 'cult' following. You know, bigger gas tank, lower to the ground, heavier than an ox - more pavement oriented still. I have buddies that own KLRs and weren't happy when Kawi went 'more street' with their latest DUAL SPORT design. I also find the guys that ride the KLRs/DRs(for the most part) don't ride offroad as much or as aggressively as the crowd riding KTMs, Husky, GasGas and Honda XR650s! As a TRUE dual sport the perfect bike should do both equally. True??? There is NO perfect 50/50 bike. So the way I view it - The KLR/DR crowd prefers mostly pavement/dirt road stuff and the KTM, Husky, Honda XR crowd prefers the mostly true offroad stuff!

I put almost 5k miles on my DR the first year I owned it, about 1500 of that offroad. After 5000 miles I made dirt specific modifications and my experience is that the DR650 and the XR650L are slightly different shades of the same bike (same size engine, same size forks, both 5-speed trans, within 20 lbs of each other which may be even closer considering wet weights). Or, maybe you were talking about the older XR650R (non-street legal)? Are you sure your DR650 isn't a DL650?

[OrangeYZ]

Originally Posted by CJBDRdude

In my opinion, Suzuki should take the much loved (but really outdated) DR650 and make it more like the heavy Kawasaki KLR 650 which also has its 'cult' following. You know, bigger gas tank, lower to the ground, heavier than an ox - more pavement oriented still.

Oh Hells no! One overweight non-suspended pig cult on this board is enough! And Suzuki makes the DL650 which stomps the ass off the KLR on road, and the DR650 which beats the KLR off road, even if it doesn't stomp its ass off.

I also find the guys that ride the KLRs/DRs(for the most part) don't ride offroad as much or as aggressively as the crowd riding KTMs, Husky, GasGas and Honda XR650s!

Dangerous to say that sort of thing around these parts. These are studly adventurers here who will not hesitate to ride their KLRs faster than walking speed on the gnarliest of flat gravel roads!

As a TRUE dual sport the perfect bike should do both equally. True??? There is NO perfect 50/50 bike. So the way I view it - The KLR/DR crowd prefers mostly pavement/dirt road stuff and the KTM, Husky, Honda XR crowd prefers the mostly true offroad stuff!

IMO, the one true 50/50 dual sport bike is the DR650, as long as you realize that 50/50 is not 100/100, or even 80/70. It is halfway good at both. The XRL is more of a 60/30 off/on, the KLR is a 10/45.

[elsalvadorklr]

what a bunch of bull...the only thing for sure is the closemindedness and such FACT statements like above...

only true 50/50 dualsport is one model bike made by suzuki? thats over 20 years old...

man...we got to travel more and see more before saying stuff like that...

lastly it makes me LAUGH so much when somebody on such a similar bike class says something like my dr is eons better than your klr, or my klr is better than your xrl...they all are OK, and suck more at one thing than the other!

geeze guys...get a grip

I agree with the posts maybe 5 or 6 up that say that its not the WEIGHT so much that has been gained, but bikes nowadays are more refined and purpose built...

the weight if in fact it has been gained has been offset for the most part with better power and better brakes...

there are only a few old school bikes out ther(yes to the xt and tt of old) that are as light or lighter than a similiar ccd bike today.

anyways

have a hoot guys

[Duken4evr]

I think we actually have a greater choice in dual sports than ever before. The Japanese are doing more or less the same thing making a range of good affordable durable bikes that are not cutting edge. Yamaha took it further with their excellent WR250R and of course we Americans want more in the form of a 450 model. The Euro manufacturers have taken the lead, selling durable cool bikes like the new Husky Terra that are a cut above Japan's dual sport offerings and on up to KTM and Husky selling racing bikes made street legal. I am old enough to remember the bad old days of 2 strokes with points ignition. Those were grim times. We have it a lot better now.

The venerable DRZ400S is an interesting bike, beaten lightly over the head with the Japanese dual sport club (please Japan, throw that away!) but sharing the same basic engine, chassis and fully adjustable cartridge suspension as the off road only "E" model, which may not be a cutting edge racer, but is an excellent serious trail bike. A firmed up "S" model DRZ can be ridden on any off road terrain at a good "C" to "B" rider's pace. Had one for 8 years and wound up using it as a pure dirt bike, it was that decent. Really liked the modded forks on my DRZ, reminded me of the excellent forks on the '87 CR250 I had. They were great off road forks, especially in the gnarly rocky rooty stuff. Slapper landings did not sting. They did not bottom, they just worked. Same with the modded shock which had a Race Tech gold valve kit. The engine in the DRZ is a gem too, especially after adding some relatively easy power up mods (cams, carb, pipe, big bore). Adding a full exhaust with just the off road bike's cams and carb makes a huge difference. A very sweet punchy midrange oriented hooked up powerband and mid 40's hp results.

A 6 speed DRZ 400 with "E" model cams and FI with a bore increase does not exist, but it could and that would be cool. It would be nice if Japan could just take it a little further. They don't have to match KTM on the cool front, just improve on the rugged stuff they have now. The DRZ 400 is an old design but a good design. Time for a mild update. It is a little frustrating that Suzuki does not sell the DRZ with proper springs and firmer valving, and that they dumbed down the cams and especially the carb. The good parts needed are already there. Does it really cost more to just do it right?

15K miles on my '02 DRZ 400 mostly off road, and the head was never off it (except for my power increase mods), valves never needed adjustment after original bed in. The DRZ was durable, the mod money I spent on it for the Yosh full exhaust, cams, suspension revalve/srpring and carb added up to a savings in the end, as I enjoyed it or 8 years. Put that bike through tortorous hell riding with KTMs and WRs and the like. It never flinched. It did manage to bruise a few egos along the way though. Do not underestimate a well ridden and modded DRZ400. The DRZ was good to me in the end, too, it sold for the $2,650 asking price in 2 days. The buyer recognized it was a very well maintained and set up bike, rode a fat wheelie past my house, came back and said SOLD!

I have a plated '10 'Berg FE450 now and love it, but still have a soft spot for the DRZ. My overall speeds have not changed, it is just less work to attain them on the new lighter bike, which, believe it or not, has an engine that feels not a lot different than my modded DRZ. Just take the whole DRZ curve and lift it 10% but keep the smooth punchy hooked up character and ice that cake with a truly wide ratio 6 speed trans (granny 1st and easy 65 mph cruising in 6th) and spot on crisp fuel injected response. The 'Berg powerplant is damn near perfect :) The new bike seems to have a well put together engine too, but I have no illusions it will prove to be the unbreakable anvil the DRZ was.

A few shots of my now sold but not forgotton DRZ, being ridden in real off road situations.







Yep, that is me on the DRZ, halfway down Radical Hill, going to say hi to the mountain goats :)

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

I put almost 5k miles on my DR the first year I owned it, about 1500 of that offroad. After 5000 miles I made dirt specific modifications and my experience is that the DR650 and the XR650L are slightly different shades of the same bike (same size engine, same size forks, both 5-speed trans, within 20 lbs of each other which may be even closer considering wet weights). Or, maybe you were talking about the older XR650R (non-street legal)? Are you sure your DR650 isn't a DL650?

Maybe the DR & XR are 'slightly different shades of the same bike' in your opinion but not mine. I've ridden (not owned) a Honda XR650 and its a lot more offroad than a DR 650 will ever be - FACT..like it or not! They may be similar in some areas, but ride them back to back..No WAY! and I'm a Suzuki guy! Its time to bring the old girl(DR 650) up to more modern standards(at least half way). No one one is telling you not to like your DR..Hell I liked mine ok, until I found theres better out there(For what I do).

[Adv Grifter]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

Yep, you've got more years experience with the bike, more miles with the bike, and a VStrom to compare. My experience is very different than yours. I agree they are not in the same league as a KTM, Husky, GasGas or BMW. I would consider them in the same league as an XR650 though, and more of a "true dualsport" than most KTM, Husky, GasGas or BMW, which is the title of the thread.

The BMW's are pretty good "true" dual sports, so I would not include BMW's on your above list. I'm talking about the original F650 Dakar's, G650's, X Challenge and such.

The F and G BMW's are about 60 lbs. heavier than a DR650. The X Challenge is the same dry weight (or close?) BMW's are good on pavement but the DR has the advantage over BMW's off road, in my experience.

Originally Posted by CJBDRdude

You're missing my point. I didn't refer to the DR and V Strom being the same kind of bike. My reference was they both do well in pretty much the same area of riding> Pavement. The DR650 is a fantastic pavement bike and so is the Strom! The DR no matter what you do to it(In my opinion) will never be a decent offroad motorcycle. I learned that after 12 years of tinkering and tweaking trying to make the DR into an offroad bike.

I partly agree ... but for mild dual sport off road riding ... the DR650 does very well with reasonable set up.

I've made several trips to Baja on my DR650 and it really surprised me off road. Loaded up with 100 lbs. of gear on one trip ... cut that to 60 lbs. on later trips. Lighter is better (DUH! )

I put over 80K miles on my DL1000 ... made several trips to Copper Canyon and all over Mexico and Baja. Lots of off road (dirt roads) On the Strom you had to choose your off road routes carefully. On the DR ... not so much. But the DR still can't do knarly, steep, rocky, ass-kicker trails like Cry Baby Canyon (Baja) or AA Enduro level single track.

I've re-done my suspension on my DR ... helps a lot. Overall the DR650 with $1000 of mods, is IMHO, the best ADV travel bike on the market today; a true dual sport.

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by Duken4evr

I think we actually have a greater choice in dual sports than ever before. The Japanese are doing more or less the same thing making a range of good affordable durable bikes that are not cutting edge. Yamaha took it further with their excellent WR250R and of course we Americans want more in the form of a 450 model. The Euro manufacturers have taken the lead, selling durable cool bikes like the new Husky Terra that are a cut above Japan's dual sport offerings and on up to KTM and Husky selling racing bikes made street legal. I am old enough to remember the bad old days of 2 strokes with points ignition. Those were grim times. We have it a lot better now.

The venerable DRZ400S is an interesting bike, beaten lightly over the head with the Japanese dual sport club (please Japan, throw that away!) but sharing the same basic engine, chassis and fully adjustable cartridge suspension as the off road only "E" model, which may not be a cutting edge racer, but is an excellent serious trail bike. A firmed up "S" model DRZ can be ridden on any off road terrain at a good "C" to "B" rider's pace. Had one for 8 years and wound up using it as a pure dirt bike, it was that decent. Really liked the modded forks on my DRZ, reminded me of the excellent forks on the '87 CR250 I had. They were great off road forks, especially in the gnarly rocky rooty stuff. Slapper landings did not sting. They did not bottom, they just worked. Same with the modded shock which had a Race Tech gold valve kit. The engine in the DRZ is a gem too, especially after adding some relatively easy power up mods (cams, carb, pipe, big bore). Adding a full exhaust with just the off road bike's cams and carb makes a huge difference. A very sweet punchy midrange oriented hooked up powerband and mid 40's hp results.

A 6 speed DRZ 400 with "E" model cams and FI with a bore increase does not exist, but it could and that would be cool. It would be nice if Japan could just take it a little further. They don't have to match KTM on the cool front, just improve on the rugged stuff they have now. The DRZ 400 is an old design but a good design. Time for a mild update. It is a little frustrating that Suzuki does not sell the DRZ with proper springs and firmer valving, and that they dumbed down the cams and especially the carb. The good parts needed are already there. Does it really cost more to just do it right?

15K miles on my '02 DRZ 400 mostly off road, and the head was never off it (except for my power increase mods), valves never needed adjustment after original bed in. The DRZ was durable, the mod money I spent on it for the Yosh full exhaust, cams, suspension revalve/srpring and carb added up to a savings in the end, as I enjoyed it or 8 years. Put that bike through tortorous hell riding with KTMs and WRs and the like. It never flinched. It did manage to bruise a few egos along the way though. Do not underestimate a well ridden and modded DRZ400. The DRZ was good to me in the end, too, it sold for the $2,650 asking price in 2 days. The buyer recognized it was a very well maintained and set up bike, rode a fat wheelie past my house, came back and said SOLD!

I have a plated '10 'Berg FE450 now and love it, but still have a soft spot for the DRZ. My overall speeds have not changed, it is just less work to attain them on the new lighter bike, which, believe it or not, has an engine that feels not a lot different than my modded DRZ. Just take the whole DRZ curve and lift it 10% but keep the smooth punchy hooked up character and ice that cake with a truly wide ratio 6 speed trans (granny 1st and easy 65 mph cruising in 6th) and spot on crisp fuel injected response. The 'Berg powerplant is damn near perfect :) The new bike seems to have a well put together engine too, but I have no illusions it will prove to be the unbreakable anvil the DRZ was.

A few shots of my now sold but not forgotton DRZ, being ridden in real off road situations.







Yep, that is me on the DRZ, halfway down Radical Hill, going to say hi to the mountain goats :)

I agree with your DRZ400 comments. Great bike that is almost indestructable!! Proven design that will run forever.. But why?? Has Suzuki refused to take some of the DRZ's good traits and incorporate them into the 650 model?? Its a shame as the DR 650 is what..the same bike since 1996? I guess thats ok if you buy one(its still not an outdated model in 2013 lol!) But for guys like me, I wouldn't look at 20 year old technology and spend $$ on it when there is so much better options available.

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by Adv Grifter

On the Strom you had to choose your off road routes carefully. On the DR ... not so much. But the DR still can't do knarly, steep, rocky, ass-kicker trails like Cry Baby Canyon (Baja) or AA Enduro level single track.

I've re-done my suspension on my DR ... helps a lot. Overall the DR650 with $1000 of mods, is IMHO, the best ADV travel bike on the market today; a true dual sport.

Yup... This has been my point right along! Thank you. I've ridden my DR650 in some real gnarly stuff and we were not happy lol! But do what I've seen quite a few DR650 riders do that are in my neck of the woods - windshield(yuck), big ass saddlebags, 80/20 d/s tires, more lighting, .. viola... V strom lol!!! I love my V Strom ..The Strom makes great Street bike thats all..

[Adv Grifter]

Originally Posted by Duken4evr

15K miles on my '02 DRZ 400 mostly off road, and the head was never off it (except for my power increase mods), valves never needed adjustment after original bed in. The DRZ was durable, the mod money I spent on it for the Yosh full exhaust, cams, suspension revalve/srpring and carb added up to a savings in the end, as I enjoyed it or 8 years. Put that bike through tortorous hell riding with KTMs and WRs and the like. It never flinched. It did manage to bruise a few egos along the way though. Do not underestimate a well ridden and modded DRZ400. The DRZ was good to me in the end, too, it sold for the $2,650 asking price in 2 days. The buyer recognized it was a very well maintained and set up bike, rode a fat wheelie past my house, came back and said SOLD!

Great and accurate comments on the DRZ! And really great pics! Wow, that radical downhill is Hair ball!

I owned an '01 DRZ400E. Great bike, rode it 3.5 years. Great trail bike ... but not a great road bike. Low gearing, no ability to carry gear. The DRZ400 S is better ... but the E model is SO MUCH nicer to ride. As you pointed out (and few seem to realize) the E and S models are very different ... and about 30 lbs. weight diff.
Cheers!

[acesandeights]

Originally Posted by CJBDRdude

Maybe the DR & XR are 'slightly different shades of the same bike' in your opinion but not mine. I've ridden (not owned) a Honda XR650 and its a lot more offroad than a DR 650 will ever be - FACT..like it or not! They may be similar in some areas, but ride them back to back..No WAY! and I'm a Suzuki guy! Its time to bring the old girl(DR 650) up to more modern standards(at least half way). No one one is telling you not to like your DR..Hell I liked mine ok, until I found theres better out there(For what I do).

This isn't about liking or disliking my bike. I've owned and ridden enough to know it's not my style to be infatuated by a brand or model. I've ridden the two also and just stated my experience is different than yours. I've actually owned or ridden a number of Japanese MX bikes and some Euro bikes. I've also owned and ridden sport bikes and cruisers. I didn't state my opinions as "FACTS" because they are opinions. Your FACT is actually your opinion. Seems you don't realize that.

[CJBDRdude]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

This isn't about liking or disliking my bike. I've owned and ridden enough to know it's not my style to be infatuated by a brand or model. I've ridden the two also and just stated my experience is different than yours. I've actually owned or ridden a number of Japanese MX bikes and some Euro bikes. I've also owned and ridden sport bikes and cruisers. I didn't state my opinions as "FACTS" because they are opinions. Your FACT is actually your opinion. Seems you don't realize that.

So okay..I've owned many and ridden many different types/brands as well. Street, dirt whatever.. I realize after owning a DR650..its a FACT that its not as much an offroad bike as a Honda XR650. Ride them one after another, you'll obviously see the difference, especially if you've had so much experience on bikes yourself!!!!!

[tHEtREV]

Originally Posted by OrangeYZ

Oh Hells no! One overweight non-suspended pig cult on this board is enough! And Suzuki makes the DL650 which stomps the ass off the KLR on road, and the DR650 which beats the KLR off road, even if it doesn't stomp its ass off.

Are you high?

How could a Suzuki be better than a Kawasaki?

Years ago my brother had a KX125 and his mate had a PE175 and the KX was better in every way except for 5 or 10Kph top speed.

The PE was always breaking down and everyone but the PE owner agreed that the KX was better in most areas.

So I find it hard to swallow that a Suzuki could even be close to a Kawasaki in performance or reliability.