New Garmin Montana

[snooker]

Originally Posted by dlh62c

Create a route in Basecamp between two points as far apart or as close as you want. Then double click in the map window on the route and a property window will open. The 'Summary' field for the route will show the total number of via points it has. The via points will take the names of the two points you selected.

Point A and Point B are defined by you. You want to get to Point B via Point A.

daryl

Ok this is a LOOOONG post, bear with me I do have some questions at the end!

I come from a 60Csx and only have experience (limited at that) on tracks so all this routing terminology is new to me. The term "via" is confusing and I think people use it from past experience in Garmin SW or GPSr's... On the one hand, as dlh62c has pointed out, "technically" in BaseCamp all "items" on a route show up in the route properties as "Via Point Name", even the start waypoint A to finish waypoint Z.

But then I see posts like:
- "use 'real' waypoints instead of shaping points"... and I assume these shaping points are just not actually waypoints but just map locations you pick in the SW app (Basecamp) itself.
- "I have never had a Route lockup if I placed my Via Points after Intersections when I needed them"... in this case maybe the word Shaping Point could have been used instead.

I'm guessing that a lot of the use of terms (via vs. shaping) comes from past GPSr's (perhaps Zumo?) but I want to know if this is correct:
- Although in Basecamp technically all points in a route are "Via Points" as listed under Properties tab for a route..., people tend to think of a route as 1 start point, 1 finish point and 0 or more Via points in between. Furthermore some via points can be actual waypoints as well and others can just be locations on the map not saved as a waypoint.
- Shaping points are a special type of Via Points in Basecamp but that are added just to force a route to go a certain path (usually after and/or before a turn). Technically to be a "shaping point", in the Properties Tab, right click on a Via Point and select "Don't Alert on Arrival (shaping point)" so then this becomes a Shaping Point type of via.

Is this correct OR are people often just intermixing old terminology from previous Garmin apps and hardware and not necessarily the Basecamp and Montana combo terms?

Anyhow for my discussion these are the terms I am using.

I understand the basic difference between tracks and routes (and what mapsets are routable) but can somebody point me to a primer on routing terminology and how to create a route in Basecamp please? Here's what I've found so far:

I found this Basecamp Tutorial - How to create a route on the other Wiki (garmin-mapsource but now includes Basecamp). It got me started and it is GREAT for a step by step Tutorial.

Around HERE we have a discussion with DRTBYK and others about basically creating a Direct route in Basecamp and creating a Track from that route, then change the route to Direct before loading both Track and Route to the GPSr where you then pick a profile that has its activity set to something other than Direct (like Auto or Motorcycle) for the Routing calculations.

So when I hear "Direct" route on ADV (for motorycles!) I assume this means it was Direct in Basecamp but NEVER used in Direct mode on the Montana because it is always routed as someting other than Direct on the Montana (based on the Setup->Routing->Activity settings for the current profile). Is this right? Otherwise I could never understand why anyone would want to follow a straight line on the Montana (i.e. Direct).

Ok so here are my questions:
- I think like many people I want to go from Start to Finish and I want to take certain roads to get there. But just because I end up adding Via Points in between the Start and Finish to shape the route, I don't want to be FORCED to hit each Via Point as a real destination, I mean if I pass one by then just keep routing me towards the Finish only and forget any Via I have already passed.

Is this possible?

For example, suppose you want to go from St. Louis to Denver and maybe through Kansas City you want to take a side route around downtown KC so you add some shaping via points so it routes you on the side route. But when you get to KC the side route you picked is too crowded or closed so you end up on a different route to KC. In that case once you've passed KC and those side route (shaping via points), you don't want it to keep trying to get you to go backwards to find that side route in KC because you are already way past it towards the only destination you care about which is Denver.

How do you do it? From my experiments, even if you make a Via Point become a "shaping" point, it seems intent to make sure you actually reach that shaping Via Point.

If you need more info, Here is exactly what I did, step by step:
- Following the Basecamp tutorial link above, it basically has you create a route using a Start and a Finish waypoint, then using the "insert" tool (pencil erasor icon, aka "rubber band") on the map to pick spots on the map to alter the route. These essentially become inserted as via points (as seen in Properties) and are not waypoints as well. I then turned these into shaping Via Points.
- When I follow this route on the GPSr (say in Auto mode), it always wants me to go to the shaping Via Point and if I bypass it (say the street is under construction and I take a side street), it keeps routing me to the shaping Via Point even if I have to make a u-turn, even after I am almost at my Finish destination. Not what I want.

[Emoto]

Snooker, what I did was to turn off automatic re-routing. This way, if I skip something, the GPS doesn't constantly try to make me go back to it. The downside is that if I get off my route it will not route me back to it, but I can look down at the screen to see where it is and go get over to it. Once I am back on it, the turn prompts will resume.

[dlh62c]

Originally Posted by snooker

…. are people often just intermixing old terminology from previous Garmin apps and hardware and not necessarily the Basecamp and Montana combo terms?

I think that’s part of it. I can certainly see the confusion in the use of the terminology. Some people are using Basecamp, but thinking in terms of Mapsource. Even Garmin has been misleading at times. The intent of my post was not to confuse anyone about via points. The intent was to point out that the user can keep tabs on the via point total as they tailor their route in Basecamp.

Originally Posted by snooker

Shaping points are a special type of Via Points in Basecamp but that are added just to force a route to go a certain path (usually after and/or before a turn). Technically to be a "shaping point", in the Properties Tab, right click on a Via Point and select "Don't Alert on Arrival (shaping point)" so then this becomes a Shaping Point type of via.

What your doing is turning on or off wither there will be an announcement of the via point on the GPS screen as you approach it. If you right click on the via point, a drop down list will appear that will allow you to change its property to ‘Alert On Arrival’ or ‘Don’t Alert on Arrival (Shaping Point)’. Not all gps support non announcement of shaping points. I’m not sure about the Montana.

One thing you want to check is via point placement on divided highways. Zoom in and make sure that the via point is placed in the correct lane for the direction of travel. Instead of placing via points at the intersection, put them just past the intersection on the road you wish to travel. You also need to zoom in close enough so as to avoid clicking on POI’s and making them via points. On the other hand, via points can also be a POI, a city park, a cafe or a gas station. These you might want to set the via point's property to 'Alert On Arrival', if you want to stop there.

Originally Posted by snooker

- I think like many people I want to go from Start to Finish and I want to take certain roads to get there. But just because I end up adding Via Points in between the Start and Finish to shape the route, I don't want to be FORCED to hit each Via Point as a real destination, I mean if I pass one by then just keep routing me towards the Finish only and forget any Via I have already passed.

Is this possible?

On my 62s, I set 'Off Route Recalculation' to 'Off'. This prohibits the gps from recalculating the route. If I overshoot the route, I can zoom out, see where I'm at in relation to it and work my way back. Some gps's like the Delorme PN40 allow you to set the off route recalculation threshold, i.e. distance from route, before it recalculates. This is handy, should you ride off the route when refueling or getting something to eat.

I hope this answered your questions.
daryl

[Albie]

The Montana does support non announcements of points.

[Rocky TFS]

Originally Posted by snooker

I'm guessing that a lot of the use of terms (via vs. shaping) comes from past GPSr's (perhaps Zumo?) but I want to know if this is correct........

Here is a discussion I lifted from the Basecamp forum some time ago that may clear up some confusion:

Originally Posted by KGANSHIRT

The concepts are quite simple. It's the method of distinguishing one from the other that is likely quite subtle in the code.

POI - A formal Point Of Interest. An entry in the internal POI database with a name, location and usually other information associated with it.

Waypoint - Any arbitrary point on the map that you have designated you want to keep track of. Usually stored in the "Favorites" or "My Locations" or whatever your personal navigation device calls its waypoint storage database. Your device will usually allow you to store such things as the location, any arbitrary name you want to supply and other information such as address, phone number, category(ies) and a symbol/icon to be used when displaying it.

Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, e.g. Go from Point A to Point B via some other arbitrary point(s) that you will designate. If your personal navigation device supports multipoint routing, the via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device, e.g. address, intersection/junction, custom POI, etc. In most cases, to use something as a via point it must already exist in one of the devices' searchable databases.

Shaping Point - In Mapsource, to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want there are a couple of methods. Just as with the personal navigation device, you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that is not already in one of the searchable location databases. Mapsource does not force you to add these points to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points.

Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Mapsource/Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.

To easily illustrate this, you can create a two-point route in Mapsource by clicking on a Point A and a Point B that will require a few turns to get from one to the other. Now export the route to a GPX file and take a look at it with Notepad or your favorite text editor. You will see that, in addition to the starting point and the ending point, there will be a bunch of other points in the file to control all the turns.

I apologize if you already knew all that. Perhaps it will be helpful to others with inquiring minds.



And yes, these terms are often misused, adding to the confusion.

[TravellingStrom]

Posting a light blue on white text means it is invisible to me so I will have to skip it :(

[Emmbeedee]

Originally Posted by TravellingStrom

Posting a light blue on white text means it is invisible to me so I will have to skip it :(

Is this better?

Originally Posted by KGANSHIRT

The concepts are quite simple. It's the method of distinguishing one from the other that is likely quite subtle in the code.

POI - A formal Point Of Interest. An entry in the internal POI database with a name, location and usually other information associated with it.

Waypoint - Any arbitrary point on the map that you have designated you want to keep track of. Usually stored in the "Favorites" or "My Locations" or whatever your personal navigation device calls its waypoint storage database. Your device will usually allow you to store such things as the location, any arbitrary name you want to supply and other information such as address, phone number, category(ies) and a symbol/icon to be used when displaying it.

Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, e.g. Go from Point A to Point B via some other arbitrary point(s) that you will designate. If your personal navigation device supports multipoint routing, the via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device, e.g. address, intersection/junction, custom POI, etc. In most cases, to use something as a via point it must already exist in one of the devices' searchable databases.

Shaping Point - In Mapsource, to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want there are a couple of methods. Just as with the personal navigation device, you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that is not already in one of the searchable location databases. Mapsource does not force you to add these points to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points.

Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Mapsource/Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.

To easily illustrate this, you can create a two-point route in Mapsource by clicking on a Point A and a Point B that will require a few turns to get from one to the other. Now export the route to a GPX file and take a look at it with Notepad or your favorite text editor. You will see that, in addition to the starting point and the ending point, there will be a bunch of other points in the file to control all the turns.

I apologize if you already knew all that. Perhaps it will be helpful to others with inquiring minds.

[Rocky TFS]

Originally Posted by TravellingStrom

Posting a light blue on white text means it is invisible to me so I will have to skip it :(

Oops, sorry....

Something weird happened when I pasted it..

Thanks MBD..

[B2]

Originally Posted by Emmbeedee

You might have an early unit. Have you called Garmin?

r.e touchscreen problems
They took it off me today and I will get a refurbished one in a couple of weeks - you were right they said it was an earlier model thanks

[TravellingStrom]

Thanks for the reposted NON blue on white explanation Emmbeedee, my eyes are grateful

No worries to the original poster, some people have different themes so the colour schemes are not the same anyway

But, to the post, as it explains, I personally do not use VIA points, I seem to use shaping points if I do it manually to force it, or it adds a bucket load in by itself

Cheers from a bar in Siem Reap, Cambodia
TravellingStrom

[Elsjo]

New software 4.70 http://www8.garmin.com/support/downl...ls.jsp?id=5335

[Emoto]

What kind of point does it make if I grab the route with the arrow shaped tool and rubber band it to a road?

[cablebandit]

Originally Posted by Emoto

What kind of point does it make if I grab the route with the arrow shaped tool and rubber band it to a road?

Shaping point.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by cablebandit

Shaping point.

Thanks! Are we limited in the Montana as to how many of those there can be in a route?

[lmychajluk]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but here it goes - If I have different maps for the Montana, can I load them all onto a single SD card and switch between them? Was hoping to be able to do City Nav, Topo, and BlueChart by buying the DVD versions and not swap SD cards.

Also, as an FYI - If you're a Citi customer w/ reward points, they have the Montana 600. It's a ridiculous # of points (120K or so, IIRC), but if you're not using your points for anything else, why not? Actually, it would probably be cheaper to buy 10 $50 Amazon or BestBuy gift cards for 60,000 points and just buy it there...or maybe 5 Cabelas $100 cards for 10,000 each?