What Would You Have Done?

[O.C.F.RIDER]

Originally Posted by BCKRider

As the OP I would like to thank you for your replies and also clarify a few things:

1. Both the guy who hit me and myself were well aware of the hazards of thrown up gravel on twisty roads (at any time of year) and the hazard of left over winter sand. We had both ridden about 50 miles of pristinely clean road in opposite directions before he encountered sand in THE ONLY passing lane on this whole highway. So I can forgive him for not even LOOKING for sand in that passing lane - I wouldn't have.
2. We both had a lot of time to look and talk before help in the shape of a cop and a tow truck arrived. Let me assure you that thin coating of sand was very hard to see when we were standing there.
3. The guy who hit me was passing a few motorhomes at a reasonable (except for that sand) rate of speed. Had our positions been reversed, I'm pretty sure I would have closed the throttle when my back tire swung out and lowsided. This guy was a good experienced rider who did everything he could to regain control.
4. I don't think "target fixation" by either of us caused the crash. I aimed to the right and braked hard. He tried to get the bike under control and then braked hard when he got shot into my lane when his back tire hooked up.
5. Perhaps of interest - maybe a half hour after the crash I wondered "did my head hit the pavement?" Sure enough, there was a nice gough in my Schuberth. The helmet saved me from a bad headache if not something much worse.
6. I'm a little surprised that none of you seem to place the blame on the road crew or whoever employed them. If any of you have the computer skills I lack to determine whether there were other accidents at this passing lane of the Bear Tooth Pass road in July 2008, your research posted here would be most welcome.
7. In retrospect, ANYTHING except slightly harder braking (real head on collision) would have been better, in fact made this a "close call." Don't think I can agree with general advice not to brake hard when faced with an unpredictable situation though.

I welcome other opinions. Hopefully we learn through this forum to think through our options before they are there in real life. Well, actually I think we just react and think about it later. But it is entertaining reading and writing on cold winter nights.

Thank you for putting up this post! It sort of bears out my argument that the other guy MAY NOT have been doing anything stupid, it seems, according to you (the ONLY one who knows!) that he was just riding along and BAM, bad luck rears it's ugly mother fucking head for not just him but the two of you. Everything in life is a matter of timing.
Glad neither one of you got hurt and you'll both ride another day!
As for the road department, I would think that's it's hard, if not downright impossible, to get each and every patch of sand off the road. Especially the ones that, as you stated, were very hard to see "when you were just standing there". I somehow doubt that the DPW guy's get out of the trucks and walk along the roads to make sure they get the roads "race track" clean. And WHY would anyone even expect that?

Did your bike get replaced yet?

Chris

[BCKRider]

Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER

Thank you for putting up this post! It sort of bears out my argument that the other guy MAY NOT have been doing anything stupid, it seems, according to you (the ONLY one who knows!) that he was just riding along and BAM, bad luck rears it's ugly mother fucking head for not just him but the two of you. Everything in life is a matter of timing.
Glad neither one of you got hurt and you'll both ride another day!
As for the road department, I would think that's it's hard, if not downright impossible, to get each and every patch of sand off the road. Especially the ones that, as you stated, were very hard to see "when you were just standing there". I somehow doubt that the DPW guy's get out of the trucks and walk along the roads to make sure they get the roads "race track" clean. And WHY would anyone even expect that?

Did your bike get replaced yet?

Chris

Actually, the real problem was that both lanes of this road WERE "race tract clean" in both directions for 50 miles. I'd wager the other guy wouldn't have missed seeing the sand if there was a bit every fourth or fifth corner. Instead, he was faced with just this one passing lane where the road crew didn't take the trouble to make the necessary two passes. And yeah, got another bike: 1992 K100RS.

[O.C.F.RIDER]

Glad to hear you got another bike!
I guess the odds of that same scenario playing out again for you must be about 100,000,000 to 1. Unless you ride Deals Gap all the time, then I think one stands a pretty good chance of getting taken out by a bike crashing coming from the other way.
Enjoy!!!!!

Chris

[duck]

Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER

HINT: sometimes it boils down to a matter of a couple of inches one way or the other, that makes the difference between crashing or just riding along oblivious to the fact that there was anything at all on the road surface. Maybe, just maybe, all those other riders you speak of, just missed where the sand was. Why the hell is everyone here so pompous and quick to proclaim that the guy who threw it away was an irresponsible no-good POS scum-bag?
NONE of us were there!!!!! Maybe the other guy WAS the asshole! But, just because he had the misfortune to crash and start the chain of events, I don't think anyone that wasn't there should automatically deem him a scum-bag that deserves to get his face punched in by "Larryboy", or anyone else for that matter. If it had happened to me, I'm sure I WOULD NOT be to happy, but unless the other guy was doing a wheelie standing on the pegs or some such dumb shit, I wouldn't automatically assume that he was being an irresponsible dip-shit until I could (hopefully) examine the situation a bit.
That would be after I stopped yelling & screaming & jumping up & down like a mental case!

Chris

I'm guessing that you're either are a similar dumbfuck who wiped out and blamed it on something else other than your own lack of riding skills or perhaps your'e just another run-of-the-mill dumbfuck.

Personally, I believe in the now so foreign concept of taking personal responsibility for one's actions and outcomes.

If I lost in to a turn, washed out and was lucky enough to only total somebody else's bike, then I'd be man enough to own up and take personal responsibility and not blame it on someone/something else. Why is that so hard to understand?

At this point I leave: Arguing with an idiot on The Internet just makes you look like an idiot. You have that in spades.

[O.C.F.RIDER]

Originally Posted by duck

I'm guessing that you're either are a similar dumbfuck who wiped out and blamed it on something else other than your own lack of riding skills or perhaps your'e just another run-of-the-mill dumbfuck.

Personally, I believe in the now so foreign concept of taking personal responsibility for one's actions and outcomes.

If I lost in to a turn, washed out and was lucky enough to only total somebody else's bike, then I'd be man enough to own up and take personal responsibility and not blame it on someone/something else. Why is that so hard to understand?

At this point I leave: Arguing with an idiot on The Internet just makes you look like an idiot. You have that in spades.

"My lack of riding skills"................
I'm certain that you most definitely would not have fucked up like the "offending rider" under the exact same conditions, because when someone is "riding"at speeds just slightly faster than one can run, it's actually hard to get high-sided or low-sided in a turn. You, I would imagine, could have hit black ice and not fallen off.
Oh, and...............Thanks for leaving!
Buh,bye!

Chris

[larryboy]

Originally Posted by duck

Personally, I believe in the now so foreign concept of taking personal responsibility for one's actions and outcomes.

If I lost in to a turn, washed out and was lucky enough to only total somebody else's bike, then I'd be man enough to own up and take personal responsibility and not blame it on someone/something else. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'd punch myself right in the face if I did something like that.

[BCKRider]

Duck and Larryboy,

I guess I must practice my communication skills as you BOTH HAVE THIS BACKWARDS. The guy who hit me DID accept responsibility. More importantly, so did his insurance company.

I AM THE ONE who believes most of the "fault" lay with the company that swept the road. When you have just ridden 50 miles of narrow, twisty mountain road that is "race track clean," you really don't expect the lone PASSING lane on the whole damn road to be covered with a thin layer of sand. At least I don't - and he didn't.

There is no question that the guy was passing at what should have been a very sane speed and that all his reactions when the bike started to slide out were the right ones. That is why I have trouble believing ours was the only MC crash on this little section of road that year.

Am I finally making myself clear?

[ttpete]

Originally Posted by duck

Personally, I believe in the now so foreign concept of taking personal responsibility for one's actions and outcomes.

If I lost in to a turn, washed out and was lucky enough to only total somebody else's bike, then I'd be man enough to own up and take personal responsibility and not blame it on someone/something else. Why is that so hard to understand?

And then your insurance would cancel you immediately for making ANY admission of that kind.

[Patj551]

Interesting thread...

First & foremost I'm glad you're both OK.

I started racing MX at 11 & turned pro at 16. in my 20s I also spent some time racing speedway with a steel shoe on my left foot & power sliding the rear while counter steering the front. I live in the Colorado Rockies where it can snow in July and road gravel, sand, & boulders can appear out of nowhere at any time. Last fall on a 65F degree day, came around a north facing corner & narrowly missed a patch of ice. There had not been any snow. Just some water that ran across the road & night time freezing temps on this north facing corner left a 3' x 2' patch of ice.

When I was 18 I stopped at a stop light. When it turned green I turned left and laid my bike down when the front tire hit a 3" puddle of motor oil that leaked from a car. I was going less than 5mph, no damage, lucky there wasn't any on coming traffic to run me over. I didn't see the oil cause I was looking ahead & scanning for oncoming traffic.

My point is, on a road bike we all must expect the unexpected and the reality is road crews can only do so much.

You asked "what would you do?" I don't know. When I ride, my body reacts without thinking. Sometimes I accelerate. Sometimes I back off, stand the bike straight up and brake hard. Sometimes I do both. What a rider does is dependent upon his/her skill set. if you have to think about what to do, it's too late. I definitely tend to ride defensively and try to keep to the right track on blind corners. That said, zipping through twisters on my Hyper can be irresistible!

If you're really serious about improving riding skills & reaction time to handle the unexpected, then working with a pro on a closed course might be an option. I know of road racing, MX, and "drift schools" that are perfect for acquiring better riding skills and becoming a safer rider. Great of you to ask what others would do, but applying the techniques takes practice.

Again, glad you are both OK. Very fortunate that your run in was not with a car! This could have easily been any one of us!

[Squarehead]

The Beartooth pass is in my back yard. That road racks up bikers every year ( mostly noob Harley riders) It is a road with tight switchbacks, steep drop offs and lots of traffic in the summer.

Riders must beware it is a dangerous mountain pass. As i see it the road crew does an excellent job with the funds they get.

Now is everybody willing to pay a toll for improved conditions?

With that said it is where i go to improve my riding skills

[jimhaleyscomet]

I am hard pressed to think of an instance where initial hard controlled braking to avoid a sudden oncoming obstacle is a bad idea so I believe the OP was right on. You can let off the brakes and swerve at a slower speed if time / conditions permit. When I am closing with an opposing obstacle the potential impact energy is determined by the SUM of both our speeds. If I get rear ended the far less energy state will be determined by the DIFFERENCE between our two speeds. I will take the reduced energy of a Difference over a Sum every time.

That said I always enter a blind curve from as far outside as possible thanks to reading Proficient Motorcycling http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Mot.../dp/1889540536 , Ride Hard Ride Smart / How to Ride a Motorcycle by Pat Hahn as well as several other safe biking books. I have not yet mastered Hough's early braking / roll on the throttle on exit strategy but I try. I also try not to over ride my sight line keeping at an absolute minimum a 4 second sight line (unlike the far majority of cyclists) and I try to stay at or below the speed limit. Finally, if someone is riding my tail I slow down and let them get by so being rear ended is far less likely for me. Perhaps these techniques are not quite as fun as riding fast into blind corners like a video game and always passing everyone. But then again, riding any motorcycle on just about any road gives so much pleasure compared to not riding that I can forgo the additional pleasure far riskier behavior brings.

The fact that the OP got down to about 5mph is a credit to his skills. Reading and practicing the skills in Proficient Motorcycling and Ride Hard Ride Smart will help him avoid the next "impossible" situation or at least reduce the severity like he did this time.

[larryboy]

Originally Posted by BCKRider

Duck and Larryboy,

I guess I must practice my communication skills as you BOTH HAVE THIS BACKWARDS. The guy who hit me DID accept responsibility. More importantly, so did his insurance company.

I AM THE ONE who believes most of the "fault" lay with the company that swept the road. When you have just ridden 50 miles of narrow, twisty mountain road that is "race track clean," you really don't expect the lone PASSING lane on the whole damn road to be covered with a thin layer of sand. At least I don't - and he didn't.

There is no question that the guy was passing at what should have been a very sane speed and that all his reactions when the bike started to slide out were the right ones. That is why I have trouble believing ours was the only MC crash on this little section of road that year.

Am I finally making myself clear?

It's been clear the whole time and we're all baffled.

I ALWAYS expect sand and rocks and people turning left in front of me, plan for people to rear end me, not see me on the freeway and nearly run me over, ice is possible and my great protector the government may not have had time to sign it or to make it race track clean.

It's my job to evaluate my riding enviroment and to keep me and my bike in my lane and off of other riders.

You are very misguided to give this guy a free pass and that's what I've been saying the whole time and you just don't seem to get it.

[High Country Herb]

I'm glad the outcome was so mild for a head on crash. It could have been much worse. Good on the insurance company for making everything right. It sounds like both riders reacted the best they could with the unexpected conditions. Things happen, but I would have felt horrible if I had been the at fault rider. It was kind of the OP to be nice to the guy, and that will likely come back around some day.

Like someone else said, however, a patch of sand does not equal negligence. With the debt our government is currently building, we can't even afford to pave roads, much less sweep them. If you sue the state, you are suing all of us who pay taxes. The assurance of clean pavement can only be expected on a race track.

[easyrider88]

BCK rider,enjoyed youre accident report.and the fact that both of you were unhurt .must have been a real thrill to see the bike coming at u.well from youre report id say the only really safe way to avoid getting hit would have been to stay home and leave the bike parked in the garage.but thats not why we ride .....................is it!!!!!!!!

[Patj551]

Originally Posted by jimhaleyscomet

I am hard pressed to think of an instance where initial hard controlled braking to avoid a sudden oncoming obstacle is a bad idea.

I'm not wanting to challenge anyone on this...just to clarify something I believe is helpful. Sometimes accelerating avoids the collision all together. Would I accelerate into something I absolutely could not avoid? No. The other thing that I believe bears mention is that how a rider responds depends an awful lot on what he/she is riding. IE, I'm much more nimble and adept at evasive manuevers on my Hyper than I am on my 600lb Mean Streak.

As far as the oncoming rider is concerned, there's been some conversation about low siding versus high siding. If the situation bears it, I'd much prefer a low side slide out than a high side body slam. Skidding is much easier on the body and bike than tumbling (as long as you don't get run over.)

In my book, the fact that both riders walked away says they both did something right! Bikes are easily replaced.

Ride safe my friends!