Countersteering confusion : (

[bh321]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

OK so try this. When you are balancing and need the bike to tip to the right, turn the bars to the right and see what happens. You either fall over or you put your foot down to keep from falling over. Your gyro angle has already been shot down (for the most part) in this very thread.

You are mistaken (wrong) be it through ignorance, willful or otherwise it doesn't matter... You are still wrong.

Now go fetch some beer.

this site cracks me up.

you seem to get the inverted pendulum principle, but discount the difference between the static and dynamic scenario. check out some of Tony Foale's stuff on his website. he explains it very well, even for the layperson.

[DAKEZ]

The fact remains that to turn a motorcycle at ANY speed a counter steer is initiated in some way EVERY time.

That should be clear enough for anyone.

[Boon Booni]

Originally Posted by ianbh

Jeezuz guys, give it up! Ian, Iowa

Why do people get bent out of shape when discussing an issue like counter steering beyond push right to turn right? You might not be interested, but you can also choose to "read" TB all day long.

Originally Posted by bh321

this site cracks me up.

you seem to get the inverted pendulum principle, but discount the difference between the static and dynamic scenario. check out some of Tony Foale's stuff on his website. he explains it very well, even for the layperson.

I've read through Tony's articles before and I don't remember him mentioning that at higher speeds it's the gyroscopic effect of turning the wheel instead of the "leans primarily due to the torque about the longitudinal axis produced by the slip angle, which was introduced by the countersteer" that causes the bike to lean over.

Got a link to that one about the gyroscopes?

[bh321]

Originally Posted by Boon Booni

Why do people get bent out of shape when discussing an issue like counter steering beyond push right to turn right? You might not be interested, but you can also choose to "read" TB all day long.




I've read through Tony's articles before and I don't remember him mentioning that at higher speeds it's the gyroscopic effect of turning the wheel instead of the "leans primarily due to the torque about the longitudinal axis produced by the slip angle, which was introduced by the countersteer" that causes the bike to lean over.

Got a link to that one about the gyroscopes?

the gyro effect is an additional torque that causes the bike to lean, it increases proportionally with wheel rotational speed, and acts in conjuction with lean torque from the "slip angle effect".

Foale has a chapter in his book regarding steering and balance where he covers it in detail.


Edit: looks like you can preview the book thru google: http://books.google.com/books?id=84h...page&q&f=false
check out chapter 4.

[thistle66]

[QUOTE=sloweddy;20668251]

Originally Posted by Klay

effect




I'm pretty sure it would be "affect".

You want to "affect" the action to bring about the desired "effect".

Here is an example from the interweb:

"Gender may affect the action of garlic oil on plasma cholesterol and glucose levels of normal subjects."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11340102

Klay's use of effect, as a verb, is correct.


ef·fect
/iˈfekt/
Noun
A change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
Verb
Cause (something) to happen; bring about.

[sloweddy]

[QUOTE=thistle66;20671431]

Originally Posted by sloweddy

Klay's use of effect, as a verb, is correct.


ef·fect
/iˈfekt/
Noun
A change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
Verb
Cause (something) to happen; bring about.

.................................................. ............................................

After reading some English usage guides I can see why effect might be used in this case...

Usually affect is a verb & effect is a noun - but there are rare exceptions...


http://web.ku.edu/~edit/affect.html

"
“Effect” as a verb. (Not common, but acceptable in rare cases.) To produce a result; to cause something to occur; to bring about an outcome. Example: Smith said the cutbacks were designed to effect basic economies for the company. "

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com...us-effect.aspx

"Rare Uses of Affect and Effect -So what about those rare meanings that don't follow the rules I just gave you? Well, affect can be used as a noun when you're talking about psychology--it means the mood that someone appears to have. For example, "She displayed a happy affect." Psychologists find it useful because they know that you can never really understand what someone else is feeling. You can only know how they appear to be feeling."

And, effect can be used as a verb that essentially means "to bring about," or "to accomplish." For example, you could say, "Aardvark hoped to effect change within the burrow."



http://www.grammar-monster.com/easil...ect_effect.htm

"There is a verb 'to effect'. It is quite rare, but useful in business writing. It means 'to bring into being'.
Read more at http://www.grammar-monster.com/easil...TPhosfIsjt6.99

[Klay]

Originally Posted by thistle66

Klay's use of effect, as a verb, is correct.


ef·fect
/iˈfekt/
Noun
A change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
Verb
Cause (something) to happen; bring about.

Of course.

[Klay]

In conclusion, a rider must lean a bike into a turn.
Counter-steering and hip thrusts are two common ways of
creating the lean, but other ways exist. The rider can take
advantage of an uneven road surface, push harder on one
pedal than the other, lean the bike over by the handlebars,
accelerate with the wheel turned, or employ the growing oscillations
shown in Fig. 5. In any event, gyroscopic forces
play little role in leaning the bike over, through they do help
set the steering angle. The appealing notion that gyroscopic
forces are central to bike behavior, often repeated in
papers3,13 and textbooks,14 is incorrect.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans...eerBikeAJP.PDF

[bonox]

if the rider leans out of the turn enough, then you don't counter steer, you just steer.

that is, if you can keep the bike vertical (on a flat road), then you'll never need to countersteer it.

This after all is the principal of the hack, which 'steers' and does not 'countersteer'. If you use your weight to provide the same reaction as the third wheel, then countersteering doesn't work.

This balancing, imo, is why you can change the steering of a bike at low speed betweeen 'steer' and 'countersteer'. At higher speeds (or lower ones with very tight turn radii), your weight and lever arm aren't enough to balance the bike, so it must always countersteer.

[DAKEZ]

[rbrsddn]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

I was going to say something, but it's all so confusing! ( Unless you just go out and ride, then even the Anti Albert Einstein will figure it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[bonox]

yeah, I know i'm an arsehole

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by bonox

yeah, I know i'm an arsehole

If that be the case or no... I'd still buy you a beer.

[Valker]

Originally Posted by bonox

if the rider leans out of the turn enough, then you don't counter steer, you just steer.

that is, if you can keep the bike vertical (on a flat road), then you'll never need to countersteer it.

This after all is the principal of the hack, which 'steers' and does not 'countersteer'. If you use your weight to provide the same reaction as the third wheel, then countersteering doesn't work.

This balancing, imo, is why you can change the steering of a bike at low speed betweeen 'steer' and 'countersteer'. At higher speeds (or lower ones with very tight turn radii), your weight and lever arm aren't enough to balance the bike, so it must always countersteer.

Bwaahaaahaahaa.... whew, thanks, this discussion needed that!

[Boon Booni]

Originally Posted by bonox

if the rider leans out of the turn enough, then you don't counter steer, you just steer.

that is, if you can keep the bike vertical (on a flat road), then you'll never need to countersteer it.

This after all is the principal of the hack, which 'steers' and does not 'countersteer'. If you use your weight to provide the same reaction as the third wheel, then countersteering doesn't work.

This balancing, imo, is why you can change the steering of a bike at low speed betweeen 'steer' and 'countersteer'. At higher speeds (or lower ones with very tight turn radii), your weight and lever arm aren't enough to balance the bike, so it must always countersteer.

I really hate it when I have to take the bike back to the dealer because my countersteering is broken.